John S. Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 After looking at the photos blues deville posted I'm thinking the snow probably cushioned the landing and may have very well turned a break-up sequence into a hard landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 After looking at the photos blues deville posted I'm thinking the snow probably cushioned the landing and may have very well turned a break-up sequence into a hard landing.I can't find the photos you refer to...has the link changed the photos?. I see no photos of the initial contact area or gear going through snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Was the 1R door not used because airframe damage prevented it from being opened properly? I haven't heard any reports about injuries to cabin crew so I assume they were able to complete their evacuation duties. On the A320, how many cabin crew are seated at the forward doors?Only the In Charge sitting at the front. There used to be two, but with 1:50 the extra FA at L1-A was removed. I read elsewhere that the R1 door was unusable but that's only hearsay so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 After looking at the photos blues deville posted I'm thinking the snow probably cushioned the landing and may have very well turned a break-up sequence into a hard landing.I can't find the photos you refer to...has the link changed the photos?. I see no photos of the initial contact area or gear going through snow.You have to scroll down a bit and then click the pictures. There are 8 of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 100 feet shorter and I think that this would have ended much differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 That rising terrain sure isn't obvious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 They didn't include a pic of where the power lines were on the other side of the road. Wasn't the initial touchdown before the road? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 If you cannot find the photos at the media sites, the photos are available from the TSB flickr page, in the album at the following link:TSBCanada: Runway excursion involving Air Canada aircraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I'm leaning toward the main landing gear after it was taken off and perhaps bounced upwards. The localizer array should have already been taken out by the wings.Just spit balling here.The localizer array isn't that high, the wings would most likely go over them. If they were trying to prevent ground contact, the nose would have been at a fairly high angle, thus making the stab low enough to contact the localizer array. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 They didn't include a pic of where the power lines were on the other side of the road. Wasn't the initial touchdown before the road?Not sure if it's been reported as touching down before the berm but apparently it did make contact with the power lines along the road. Several passengers say they witnessed the flash of light from hitting the wires. Not sure why they are not included in any series of photos. I guess a free standing hydro pole doesn't look like that interesting. However in the TSB/Flicker series of photos, someone did include a photo of a female investigator at the accident scene. I guess posting her image is key to solving this incident. Passing these obstacles twenty feet higher might have been a non-event. Twenty feet lower could have been a disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Have a look at he picture of the nose and the right wing. Both pieces have been penetrated by the antenna array. There are pieces hanging from the nose. The Nose was the first point of impact with the array and if I had to guess it was right wing low at the time because the impact point in the photo is dead centre but there are still 2 standards intact on the left but everything on the right is wiped out. I agree that the gear is likely what took out the stab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 You have to scroll down a bit and then click the pictures. There are 8 of them.Thanks...I went too far down and got the eight that are mostly the night shots... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feather Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Have a look at he picture of the nose and the right wing. Both pieces have been penetrated by the antenna array. There are pieces hanging from the nose. The Nose was the first point of impact with the array and if I had to guess it was right wing low at the time because the impact point in the photo is dead centre but there are still 2 standards intact on the left but everything on the right is wiped out. I agree that the gear is likely what took out the stab.What altitude is the aircraft supposed to be at directly over the orange array on the hilltop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 What altitude is the aircraft supposed to be at directly over the orange array on the hilltop?The aircraft should have passed over the runway threshold at 75-100' on a normal profile, well clear of the antenna structure.The minimums at 1.7 IHZ (the missed approach point) are LOC 740' and NDB 960', which are 273' and 497' above ground. And they would have adjusted the MDA by adding another 20-30 feet due to the reported temperature. Runway 05 touchdown zone elevation is 463'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pivot Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 This is a good picture of how tall the localizer array was. All but two have been sheered off at their base. Most of the top pieces fell almost straight down after the wing cut through them. I think the only reason the left two are standing is because the wing was to the right of them. If you watch crosswind landings you will notice that the main gear normally track on the downwind side of the runway centre (crab). You can also see both main gear in the snow off to the right of centre.I guess the pieces of the localizer array that flew over the wing could have hit the horizontal stab. But I doubt they make them heavy enough to do that kind of damage. The one that is embedded in the nose looks like it is fibreglass?https://twitter.com/CTVNews/status/582303739320623104 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Why don't y'all wait for the investigation report, instead of all this speculation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavok Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Several passengers say they witnessed the flash of light from hitting the wires. Not sure why they are not included in any series of photos. I guess a free standing hydro pole doesn't look like that interesting. My guess is that since power was restored within a few hours that the wires were restrung soon after and before the sun came up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 My guess is that since power was restored within a few hours that the wires were restrung soon after and before the sun came up.I would think the TSB would be interested to see the knocked down wires as part of their investigation but perhaps not necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ywgame Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 per tsb pictures, initial touch-down was at least a couple hundred feet before the road/wires, in the field. they hit the wires and berm/array on the way up, on the bounce. appears stab taken out by gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 per tsb pictures, initial touch-down was at least a couple hundred feet before the road/wires, in the field. they hit the wires and berm/array on the way up, on the bounce. appears stab taken out by gearWhere do you see that in the TSB photos??? It looks, to me, they hit AFTER they crossed the road/fence. I would think the gear probably took out the hydro and a brief touchdown as indicated in the snow and then up the hill through the array and then the big slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I don't think the heading, attitude and track of the aircraft can be accurately determined from the photo evidence at hand, which makes any attempt to determine the physical geometrics of the crash sequence pretty difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pivot Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 This is the only photo I can find of the cut power lines:https://twitter.com/KSundahlCTV/status/582074965815611393/photo/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Still begs the question - what were they doing down there, that far out.I recall the A320 has a knob on the MCP to select STD or Altimeter Baro Setting, and that it is a push to select STD (29.92"/1013.25mb). Are there any warnings if this is not reset from STD? The METAR at the time was about 0.28 below STD but together with a -6 C cold temperature, MDA would be broken by nearly 300 feet.Time will tell. Still glad nobody physically hurt badly.One thing that should come of this perhaps: Firehalls at international airports have a separate garage to hold a full size bus that can accompany ARFF vehicles to a crash site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tailwheel Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Are the power lines below runway elevation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Google earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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