A320 Down In France (Germanwings)

[inchman]

The FO murderer did this to be remembered. Let's not let his dying wish come true.

Don't use the coward's name.

Only the heroes should be remembered.

God's speed Captain Sondheimer.

[Don Hudson]

The world has convicted a pilot based upon hearsay evidence promulgated by the world's media and the instant judging of the internet.

In place of the body normally responsible for accident investigation, the BEA, the event was swiftly taken over by the French prosecutor who has already pronounced on cause and who's office does not have the investigative expertise to determine cause but rather, when in possession of a "hammer", will see everything as a "nail". It may end up as the world now widely understands, but the process is now badly flawed, even plausibly contaminated.

This is all very rapidly done as the world Twitters it's way to conviction, and while those directly in contact with the trail of evidence may have as complete an understanding of what really happened as may be needed for such conclusions, none of us are included in such trail yet we have concluded that this pilot is to be hated and exorcised from our recognition.

While it may end up being so, and certainly what has been provided as "public knowledge" would seem to confirm the notion of murder-suicide, a notion that will now never be reversed should evidence ultimately show other medical events, I think those responsible for determining cause have lost their way and lost an understanding of principles. Rapid dissemination of limited data and subsequent conviction as opposed to strong-suspicion within a proper accident investigation is inappropriate.

[Fido]

The world has convicted a pilot based upon hearsay evidence promulgated by the world's media and the instant judging of the internet.

We do not need courts anymore; we have the Internet.

[DEFCON]

It is safe I think to accept the fact that the poor bugger was troubled.

What kind of duty schedule had he been keeping over his first month, or so on the line and if life at the 'bargain' carrier was as demanding as I imagine it might be, did the associated stress levels play a big part in pushing him over the edge?

[Don Hudson]

DEFCON;

What kind of duty schedule had he been keeping over his first month, or so on the line and if life at the 'bargain' carrier was as demanding as I imagine it might be, did the associated stress levels play a big part in pushing him over the edge?

Quite possibly, but only that. I believe that almost all normal human beings have troubles with depression, anxiety, stress, "anomie", (an existential concept expressing meaninglessness of life) as well as biochemical disruptions that result in overt behaviours most of which do not interfere with or cause harm to oneself or others.

That said, I acknowledge that, for example, neither the news media nor "the internet" (per se) drove Luka Magnota (sp) to do what he did, the point being not that this pilot didn't do what he is accused of but that we do not know, having only gone along with what has been handed to us by the media and the internet thus far.

In this kind of work where matters are serious and there are powerful interests at work, the notion that 'if it quacks like a duck...', etc., isn't sufficient.

Stroke has not been ruled out, (nor in).

[inchman]

You are right, of course, Don. I am certainly one of those who has been swayed by the presented evidence. I wish I could hold back my mind from drawing conclusions too soon.

However, even to your objective mind, it must seem damning. Stroke or other incapacitation would mean that the access code would work, unless it was a stroke AND a door control failure. The aircraft wouldn't have descended unless two specific things were done on the MCP. That rate of descent wouldn't be possible without speedbrakes unless the aircraft was accelerating and then it would have to decrease at some point, which was apparently not the case.

I guess another possibility is that the Captain silently disabled the FO, set the descent in just as he left, then acted like he was being denied access by banging and screaming at the door.

So, while you are right that we should wait until the final report, I don't think that anyone can be blamed for thinking that this was some kind of deliberate act by the FO, given the inappropriately leaked information and assuming that what has been leaked is, at least, true.

[Don Hudson]

Dave, re "However, even to your objective mind, it must seem damning."

Yes, it does, it is very difficult not to respond, and like everyone else who read this on the day, it was just heartbreaking news. I am not as skeptical as some about the conclusions drawn thus far regarding murder-suicide, but it is the investigative process that must proceed and without the media and the internet. Unfortunately and I think wrongly the investigative process has been appropriated by the French judiciary. I think that decision will forever contaminate and haunt this event. Worse, it jeopardizes what lessons may be learned by the industry which is in the midst of one of the greatest, most rapid expansions attended by the concurrent need for thousands pilots 'now'. The French action is wholly contrary to the flight safety process. But there it is.

Thanks for your response - it's just one of those deeply disturbing things, even worse than MH370, if that was possible to imagine prior to this event.

[Kip Powick]

What is more disturbing/disgusting is a "newspaper/rag" that is reporting that a cellphone was found in the wreckage and the last few minutes of the flight, (video and audio), is now being circulated ..

I think the sense of decency and compassion by these "newspaper/rag" individuals has long ago, left the building.

..so very sad.

Don,

The speculation about this tragedy is only human nature and in this day and age, confidentiality is very hard to maintain. The media sensationalism hounds are always looking for the "big" scoop and first to 'ink' it or 'audio' a sound bite become journalistic heroes in their office and their newspapers circle.

We are no better in Canada......One only has to watch the Press when death rears its head at a fatal fire or traffic accident and the Press gets a hold of the grieving NOK.

Yes, there is Freedom of the Press, but I think we would all be better off if they tempered that 'freedom' with some tender compassion when considering dreadful circumstances that may surround an incident.

As an aside........look how long the Press, (in those days, back then), left Rock Hudson alone when the vast majority knew he was gay but would not write any stories about him until he came forward, in France.

And finally.....as it pertains to Media's pillorying of the FO, I am cynical enough that I feel some of the Press feel that , ........." a dead man feels no pain when hanged"

[Don Hudson]

Hi Kip - regarding your last statement, the media knows what sells and that's all that counts..., always has, in various forms. One could suppose that all the media and internet did was to choose to repeat unverified rumours which is a very good point you make.

A long time ago I was visiting in hospital with the F/O on the DC9 that went off 23 and into the ravine. He was a good friend, (serious back injuries, cut knees has he dove out the open cockpit window) and his family was there too, when a man came into the room and asked "which one of you is Mr. XXX?", (referring to the pilot). I think he was from the Star. We held the F/O's father back as he was about to clean the reporter's clock, while others forcefully escorted the intruder out of the hospital room.

Nothing's changed in 36 years. It sells. But the media requires an audience who buy, or watch or read their stuff, and we have the choice to take part, or not.

[mo32a]

Who said that? The point being made here is that this f/o, as a contractor and not a full time employee, might have had strong incentives not to book sick, on top of every other situation this contractor/self-employed status creates, especially in a profession where you are required to be sharp and focused

Now you are just making stuff up. He was not a contract employee, he was full time with the company and all Germanwings aircrew are on the Lufthansa seniority list, so he had a good future if he could maintain his medical, and he certainly had sick leave available to him.

[Innuendo]

Nothing's changed in 36 years. It sells.

As exemplified by CBC news finding the"Retired Airline Captain" Tom Bunn to interview and quote on their site and news.

I imagine the more informed and level headed people they could reach here in Canada will not give them the lurid copy and comments they seem to want.

CBC news channel seems to be more and more a combination of People Magazine and National Enquirer these days.

[Gumbi]

He was not a contract employee, he was full time with the company and all Germanwings aircrew are on the Lufthansa seniority list, so he had a good future if he could maintain his medical, and he certainly had sick leave available to him.

I stand corrected! I was given that bad info somewhere else and failed to check myself. Now done.

Previous posts will be edited accordingly.

[J.O.]

An interesting take. It was written several years ago but is definitely relevant to the discussion around this tragic event.

Unless you've spent your entire aviation career inside a cocoon, you've probably encountered a pilot who shouldn't pilot; a person who, despite having accumulated a wealth of flight hours, ratings, and sometimes years of line experience, would be better suited to a different occupation.

Is it too bold a supposition to say that some people simply shouldn't be commercial pilots? It seems that eventually every pilot will encounter another who seems unfit to fly. The judgment could result from the other pilot's glaring lack of technical skills, a disturbing personality trait, habitual over-consumption of alcohol or drugs, or any number of other factors that cause serious doubts by one pilot about the safety of another.

Yet while most pilots are assertive by nature, as a group we tend to wimp out when it comes to thinning the herd. None of us wants to be the one to potentially end another pilot's career, even when we find one we know is dangerous. We do nothing, remain mute, and hope that perhaps a truly bad pilot will quit, the "system" will weed him out, or someone else will sound the alarm -- anything that doesn't involve our active participation in the process.

Full editorial here.

http://aviationweek.com/bca/pilots-who-shouldnt-be

[boestar]

J.O.

Your Quote is very true. Being a pilot is something that requires a certain amount of passion and commitment. While most of the skills can be learned, the basics of seat of the pants stick and rudder coordination are something that you either have or you don't. A good pilot can instinctively feel what needs doing. Some don't have that but have been taught how to operate "Otto", the stick and rudder skills have been lost. We have seen this in a few accidents over the last few years.

Then there are people, I fall into this category, That love to fly and have a passion for it but could NEVER do it as a career. I love the freedom of flying but could not see myself in the cockpit of an aircraft for hours as a commercial pilot. To me that takes a certain type of person.

I think that the best pilots are the ones with the passion still in their veins.

[deicer]

Watching the news this morning and seeing the press conference the Lufthansa CEO had in the field leads me to believe that they know that they are now in extremely serious trouble over the knowledge that they allowed this individual to keep on flying.

Maybe the $300 million they put aside isn't going to be enough.

[DEFCON]

Although potential causal factors may exist that we're unaware of at this time, I think sufficient evidence has been presented to the public to safely accept the contention that the FO was a deeply troubled individual. As to what actually took place on the aircraft, the prosecutor's report aside, we should I think wait for the official report before concluding anything ourselves.

[Guest]

Are people with Mental Disorders ever cured or is their behavior just modified by their medicine? There are lots of news stories about terrible things done by those who have stopped taking their medications (as there are about people without any mental disorder). Some folks believe that anyone with a mental disorder should never be allowed to operate or maintain any transport category equipment.

Is this the answer? I don't think so but what will be the knee jerk reaction to the latest incident?

A google of "should people with mental disease be allowed to operate commercial aircraft" yields page after page addressing this question.

[J.O.]

That's a difficult one to answer and I'm certain it's not the same for everyone. Each case should be handled based on the patient's own situation and only by well qualified individuals. Does every aviation physician have adequate qualifications for that?

[Moon The Loon]

If cleared to fly on one's meds, who ensures one stays on one's meds?

[deicer]

To quote CPAIR...

"Are people with Mental Disorders ever cured or is their behavior just modified by their medicine? There are lots of news stories about terrible things done by those who have stopped taking their medications (as there are about people without any mental disorder). "

One only has to follow this case to see how it works...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/vince-li-man-in-bus-beheading-granted-unsupervised-passes-to-winnipeg-1.2976618

Personally, I wouldn't want anyone with these kind of issues in charge of anything or any situation that has influence over groups of people.

[Guest]

To quote CPAIR...

"Are people with Mental Disorders ever cured or is their behavior just modified by their medicine? There are lots of news stories about terrible things done by those who have stopped taking their medications (as there are about people without any mental disorder). "

One only has to follow this case to see how it works...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/vince-li-man-in-bus-beheading-granted-unsupervised-passes-to-winnipeg-1.2976618

Personally, I wouldn't want anyone with these kind of issues in charge of anything or any situation that has influence over groups of people.

If you are going to quote me on an issue this important please use a complete quote:

Are people with Mental Disorders ever cured or is their behavior just modified by their medicine? There are lots of news stories about terrible things done by those who have stopped taking their medications (as there are about people without any mental disorder). Some folks believe that anyone with a mental disorder should never be allowed to operate or maintain any transport category equipment.

Is this the answer? I don't think so but what will be the knee jerk reaction to the latest incident?

A google of "should people with mental disease be allowed to operate commercial aircraft" yields page after page addressing this question.

[Guest]

OPINION: Time to stop Germanwings information anarchy

By: FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL

Source:

in 3 hours

Intense media interest in an accident like the ­Germanwings crash in the French Alps is understandable – but the way the media and public has been fed with information directly from a grandstanding French judicial prosecutor is not.

The prosecutor’s public statement within 48h of the incident that he was satisfied that the co-pilot had crashed the aircraft deliberately was made even more legally surreal by the fact that the “guilty” party was beyond prosecution by reason of death.

Now the media marketplace has been so flooded with “information” and speculation that, for a member of the public seriously looking for reliable facts from expert or official sources, it is difficult to tell what is real and what is not. The effect has been to put intolerable pressure on the excellent French accident investigator – the BEA – to provide data to back up not only what the media actually know, but also what they think they know.

And all this is happening when the investigators should be left to get on with their job of painstakingly sifting and testing the real evidence at their disposal. Left alone to do so, the BEA would – fairly quickly – have provided a statement of established facts, ­enabling intelligent interpretation by the public and media, and avoiding information anarchy that also compromises the judicial system.

[deicer]

Good morning CP...

No problem with including the full quotes going forward.

As for the issue addressing people with mental disorders, while I agree that they should get help, and they should be integrated into society as much as possible, there are situations/jobs where they shouldn't be in charge of matters affecting others.

Flags go up, but sometimes in an effort to be accommodating of the needs of the patient, too much risk is put on the general public. Political correctness can only go so far imho.

[inchman]

Good morning CP...

No problem with including the full quotes going forward.

As for the issue addressing people with mental disorders, while I agree that they should get help, and they should be integrated into society as much as possible, there are situations/jobs where they shouldn't be in charge of matters affecting others.

Flags go up, but sometimes in an effort to be accommodating of the needs of the patient, too much risk is put on the general public. Political correctness can only go so far imho.

I agree with this view.

The groups that support mental illness have been telling us for years that it is simply like any other disability except it is hidden and I agree fully with their position. Thankfully, long gone are the days when people who can't walk are reduced to selling pencils on the street and when people who have mild mental issues are locked up in institutions.

But there are some disabilities that disqualify people from becoming pilots. Blindness, loss of function of an arm or leg are "reasonable" reasons against becoming or remaining a pilot. Mental issues, especially current bouts of depression with suicidal tendencies, should also disqualify people from commanding anything more than a car; maybe not even that. We prevent people with a high risk of heart attack or stroke (such as arterial blockage or aneurysm) from flying and these are generally (or at least relatively) passive failures (from the point of aircraft control) when they occur.

We have an inclusive society, at least in the first world, but there should be limits.

After every crash, we examine the evidence to find the causes, then upgrade procedures and training, modify systems, incorporate new features. If this crash turns out to be caused by the intentional action by a mentally ill pilot, I would hope that something is done to ensure that the "pilot feature" on every aircraft is sound. If that means having to have a talk with every pilot, then so be it. As pilots, we are subjected to physical tests every 6 or 12 months; a mental checkup every few years or after a P2P call wouldn't be a terrible thing.

[DEFCON]

Isn’t it just a bit ironic that our society would go through all sorts of conniptions hoping to find a satisfactory way to deny people suffering from depression, or any number of other mental disorders access to firearms and at the same time move to reverse a long standing rule and allow pilots sharing a similar diagnosis to operate commercial aircraft?