A320 Down In France (Germanwings)

[Kip Powick]

AC has apparently announced it will implement the US two-in-the-cockpit-at-all-times practice, effective immediately. However, I haven't seen a news release.

I would assume that the "replacement" individual will have to be conversant with the pilot's O2 mask donning procedure....or will a 'crew' bottle and mask be put up front?

[vanishing point]

Here's another link to the media release of AC's new policy: http://globalnews.ca/news/1905570/air-canada-to-implement-new-policy-requiring-2-people-in-cockpit/

Ironically, here at the Dash 8 division of Jazz Aviation (soon to be "Classic Airlines"), the "2-persons-in-flight deck-at-all-times" has been in effect since the new FD doors were installed.

It's not that we're ahead of our time; just that due to the design of the door, it cannot be opened from the cabin if locked.

[dagger]

Now every Canadian passenger airline has to do it.

http://www.610cktb.com/NationalCP/Article.aspx?id=459283

[UpperDeck]

As I recall each jump seat has a mask and cabin crew are briefed on its operation.

This return to former procedure will only apply to "short-haul" with no rp.

[Kip Powick]

Now every Canadian passenger airline has to do it.

http://www.610cktb.com/NationalCP/Article.aspx?id=459283

Good old Lisa................

Raitt said the directive requires two members of the cabin crew — not necessarily both licensed pilots — to be on the flight deck at all times.

"All we're saying is there must be two members of the cabin crew on the flight deck at all times."

Based on what she has stated, (and we know it is incorrect), we could put two FAs up front while both licensed pilots, head out for a break.

I would imagine the "directive" will be corrected to state that a qualified, (licensed pilot) FLIGHT CREW member must be present in the cockpit at all times and another crew member, (cabin crew), of the subject flight must be present should one of the two (licensed pilots) FLIGHT CREW members vacate the cockpit.

[Specs]

Would all of that 630 Hrs TT this fella accrued be in the airplane or does that include sim and other training time?

[moeman]

So...when you have a smaller aircraft with only one FA in the back, you just leave the cabin unattended?

[mo32a]

Well so much for all the complaints about how pilots have to go through the same screening as passengers to go through security. Now they will have a special line for crew members that might be a lot stricter than the general public.

Now for one "Sully" we have Malaysian, German Wings, Egypt Air, Air France where the flight would have been better handled if there were no flight crew aboard.

Perhaps the day will come when there is a "monitor" in the cockpit who has no control of any inputs unless the ground station allows it electronically.

Sad day indeed for aviation when you can't trust your flight crew.

[vanishing point]

So...when you have a smaller aircraft with only one FA in the back, you just leave the cabin unattended?

The only reason a pilot leaves the flight deck at Jazz is to use the lav. The FA that replaces him/her will ensure the FD door is locked and watch over the cabin through the FD door viewing window.

When the pilot is ready to return to the FD, he/she contacts the crew after making sure the cabin is secure before the door is opened.

It has worked this way since 9/11.

[Vsplat]

Hmmmm.

Does anyone else find it odd that the reports on the FO's behaviour all mention 'silent' along with regular breathing?

I'm no specialist, but if someone was awake and engaged in such a massive intentional act, I cannot imagine regular breathing, and neither can I imagine them being silent as they finally approached their end goal,

Early days, but I would not be taking my money off incapacitation just yet.

Doesn't invalidate the concern about accessing the flight deck, but that FO's family must be living some kind of hell. Their pain won't be undone by a more benign finding later.

Vs

[Moon The Loon]

That's going to be fun with the new reduced crewing levels in the back, especially with 2 on the Embraer.

Or single FA on many other turbo-props. Solution? Minimum of two FA's on any 704/705 or equivalent aircraft. Alternative? Forbid pilots from leaving the flight deck during flight.

Owners and shareholders would prefer option 2, I'm sure.

Option 3: Retrofit these aircraft with a second flight deck access door just like El Al has done since the 1970's. Just make the second door of the same strength as the primary door and that the primary door cannot be locked when the second door is engaged.

Can you say $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$?

Back to option 2. Once again, pilots will pay for management and regulatory failures.

I'm not even going to consider discussing the MPL discussion yet. Still to pi$sed off at what happened Tuesday.

[Moon The Loon]

Well so much for all the complaints about how pilots have to go through the same screening as passengers to go through security. Now they will have a special line for crew members that might be a lot stricter than the general public.

Now for one "Sully" we have Malaysian, German Wings, Egypt Air, Air France where the flight would have been better handled if there were no flight crew aboard.

Perhaps the day will come when there is a "monitor" in the cockpit who has no control of any inputs unless the ground station allows it electronically.

Sad day indeed for aviation when you can't trust your flight crew.

Some will use this as fodder for the drone technology to be accelerated for use in airliners. I don't think a remote operator would have been able to do what Sully did, or Capt. Haines or countless other examples of major emergencies.

This is again, a one-off incredibly isolated incident. I hope after the example of some of the knee-jerk reactions from Sept 11, some time will be spent by ICAO and its members to come up with a rational solution.

I've offered my solution, one that I had hoped for immediately after 9/11, that of either a second flight deck area door, or just moving the current security door aft to include the forward lav in the flight deck environment.

[inchman]

Hmmmm.

Does anyone else find it odd that the reports on the FO's behaviour all mention 'silent' along with regular breathing?

I'm no specialist, but if someone was awake and engaged in such a massive intentional act, I cannot imagine regular breathing, and neither can I imagine them being silent as they finally approached their end goal,

Early days, but I would not be taking my money off incapacitation just yet.

Doesn't invalidate the concern about accessing the flight deck, but that FO's family must be living some kind of hell. Their pain won't be undone by a more benign finding later.

Vs

I don't want to add more blame to the guy, either, without more info, but there isn't any way to get that aircraft out of cruise prior to the normal profile without moving at least 2 knobs/switches and you can't get over 3000 ft per minute out of an airliner without using speedbrakes at the speed it was traveling.

Until now Air Canada had 3,000 "security risks" that now need supervising. Now we have those 3,000, plus we have added 7,000 more, one of which could use a well known piece of firefighting equipment, or even a simple wire as a weapon to kill the pilot. At least pilots come with industry reputations and have to have been flying for years before they get to a flight deck at a major carrier in Canada. Flight attendants have access to the flight deck after only 6 weeks of training and now we are going to require that essentially unknown person to sit behind a lone pilot who is supposed to be paying attention to the aircraft by facing forward.

And if it's a pilot who wants to carry out this type of murder in the future, all he has to do is kill the flight attendant first.

What will the knee-jerk reaction be when a flight attendant kills a pilot and follows 4 simple instructions to crash an aircraft? Don't open the door, spin this, press that, pull this. I have no doubt it will happen. Is the answer 2 flight attendants for every pilot ? (Actually, I kind of like the sound of that! ) (Could have used a more graphic smilie, but thought better of it).

As I said before, the door lock is only a piece of software... just program it with an additional code only known to pilots that gives undeniable access (and, of course, disable any physical lock).

And, mo32a, Sully is only one of the spectacular stories. Pilots prevent thousands of accidents every day by their very presence in the flight deck, just doing things that nobody even notices. It is this very "feature" built into every professional pilot that makes tragedies like those you mention so rare, to the point of being able to remember the individual cases in millions of flights.To suggest that the score is 4 to 1 is almost insulting.

[Kip Powick]

Hmmmm.

Does anyone else find it odd that the reports on the FO's behaviour all mention 'silent' along with regular breathing?

I'm no specialist, but if someone was awake and engaged in such a massive intentional act, I cannot imagine regular breathing, and neither can I imagine them being silent as they finally approached their end goal,

Early days, but I would not be taking my money off incapacitation just yet.

Doesn't invalidate the concern about accessing the flight deck, but that FO's family must be living some kind of hell. Their pain won't be undone by a more benign finding later.

Vs

There was a "mental expert" on CNN today and he stated that the FOs action and breathing was not unusual. In the case of a person with a mental problem or a condition such as this FO may have had, it is not unusual for the individual to reach a point of tranquility once the decision to commit "the act" is reached.

He stated that the only sign that the FO may have exhibited with respect to his overall personal trait about reaching a decision was his tendency to be a bit curt when he and the Captain were discussing the arrival checklist.

It will be very interesting to see what the post impact medical experts find out regarding the FO's physical condition prior to the crash.

[Guest]

Kip, based on the accident scene, it is unlikely that they will find enough of the FO's remains to conduct such a test. .....

[Seeker]

It will be very interesting to see what the post impact medical experts find out regarding the FO's physical condition prior to the crash.

That's optimistic.

[Jaydee]

CNN now reporting that the Altitude was set from 38'000 down to 100' .

With all the other revelations of today, there is now no doubt this FO was on a planned death mission.

What I can not fathom is how a supposed "sane" person can take 150 people with him unless there is a greater purpose at play here!

[Alt*]

My company just issued with immediate effect a new company policy shall exist that prohibits any instance whereby only one member of crew is alone on the flight deck during flight.

I had implemented this myself for the last couple of years, nobody said anything to me but I had the feeling that they might of thought I was paranoid?.

[mo32a]

And, mo32a, Sully is only one of the spectacular stories. Pilots prevent thousands of accidents every day by their very presence in the flight deck, just doing things that nobody even notices. It is this very "feature" built into every professional pilot that makes tragedies like those you mention so rare, to the point of being able to remember the individual cases in millions of flights.To suggest that the score is 4 to 1 is almost insulting.

I know that and you know that but the general public just sees instances of pilots intentionally or unintentionally crashing airplanes and that is what is left in their minds. They expect every flight to get from point a to point b and aren't concerned with the nuances of what the pilot did to make that happen, they are only shocked when it doesn't.

[Moon The Loon]

CNN has finally acknowledged the presence of the deadbolt which, once thrown, renders all keypad automated unlatching scenarios moot. They spent 12 hours explaining in detail the electronic features built into the door but ignored completely the issue of the deadbolt. They've finally gotten it right.

There are no secrets here now anymore. I was surprised but pleased by today's announcement of a change to the Standards requiring a second crewmember. I always thought that was the way it was supposed to be - we practiced it at C-3000; I practiced it when overseas under contract, sometimes to the consternation of the In Charge. At least it is now law.

And now we await the posthumous dissection of every crewmembers life with a focus on the co-pilot.

What a strange, mysterious, sad & tragic year in aviation history...

[conehead]

The dead-bolt needs to be done away wth.

[acsidestick]

The solution is quite simple.

Give both pilots and one Flight Attendant a gun. Place a dog onboard with training to bite the first one who pulls out a gun, but leave the person who pulls the second gun alone.

Should also train the dog to bite the third hand as well in case of suicide pact, or Stockholm syndrome.

It always comes back to idiot regulators, and smart dogs.

[conehead]

So, pilots will be very paranoid about who they are paired with?

[CD]

I guess cargo and combi operators will be doing some hiring... especially those combi operators with the Class F compartment where the passenger compartment is physically isolated from the flight deck and cannot be accessed during flight.. Presumably they will have to have three in the flight deck at all times now...

[Seeker]

Standby for the exemptions - cargo aircraft will probably be one of them.