Guest Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 13:31 24.03.2015(updated 14:06 24.03.2015) Get short URL2143822Germanwings Airbus A320 en route from Barcelona to Dusseldorf with 148 people on board crashed in southern France Tuesday. Germanwings A320 airplane, flight 4U9525, crashed in southern France Tuesday, Europe1 radio network reported.The airliner was flying from Barcelona, Spain, to Germany's city of Dusseldorf when it disappeared from the radars in the Alpes-de-Haute-Provence in southern France.French President Hollande said that the conditions of the accident suggest that there were no survivors.French Prime Minister Manuel Valls confirmed the Airbus A320 crash. French Interior Minister is heading to the crash site, Le Monde reported.The information was also confirmed by the local authorities of the Alpes-de-Haute-Provence and the French Civil Aviation.According to media reports, the first debris have been found. Germanwings passenger jet that crashed in southern France had 142 passengers, 2 pilots and 4 crewmembers aboard.There are no reports so far of the wreckage location or if there are any survivorsRead more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150324/1019927204.html#ixzz3VIgDdApg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Lost A320 descended only minutes after reaching high cruiseBy: DAVID KAMINSKI-MORROWLONDONSource: in 6 hoursSurveillance data from the Germanwings Airbus A320 lost over south-eastern France appears to indicate that the flight climbed to 38,000ft briefly before descending.The data, taken from automatic dependent surveillance transmissions, has not been officially verified. But it indicates that the aircraft reached the peak altitude over the Mediterranean Sea while operating the Barcelona-Dusseldorf route.It also suggests the aircraft maintained this height for only a few minutes before starting to descend as it approached the French coast near Marseille.Meteorological data for Marseille airport around the time indicates good visibility and no significant weather conditions.German air navigation authority DFS says that there were 154 occupants on the aircraft including six crew members.The aircraft crashed at 10:37 local time, about 50km north of Marseille.Unconfirmed reports suggest the airframe involved is D-AIPX, serial number 147, one of the oldest A320s in service. Flightglobal’s Ascend Fleets database shows this aircraft to be a 25-year old CFM International CFM56-powered example.French civil aviation administration DGAC says the aircraft has come down near a town named Barcelonette. The carrier is the low-cost arm of Lufthansa Group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 The Latest: French officials say debris from plane crash in the Alps located at 2,000 metres The Associated Press Mar 24, 2015 05:40:00 AM Share12:40 p.m. (1140 GMT, 7:40 a.m. EDT)French Interior Ministry spokesman Pierre-Henry Brandet says debris from the crash of an Airbus A320 has been located and the plane crashed at 2,000 metres altitude in the Alps.Brandet told BFM television that he expected “an extremely long and extremely difficult” search and rescue operation because of the area’s remoteness.The airplane sent out a distress signal at 10:45 a.m. Tuesday, Brandet said.He said the passenger manifest is being verified.12:30 p.m. (1130 GMT, 7:30 a.m. EDT)French President Francois Hollande says no survivors are likely in the Alpine crash of a passenger jet carrying 148 people.The Germanwings Airbus A320 crashed Tuesday in the French Alps region as it travelled from Barcelona to Duesseldorf, French officials said. Eric Ciotti, the head of the regional council, said search-and-rescue teams were headed to the crash site at Meolans-Revels.In a live briefing Tuesday, Hollande said the area of the crash was remote and it was not clear whether anyone on the ground had been hurt. Hollande said it was probable that a number of the victims are German.“It’s a tragedy on our soil,” he said, adding he would be speaking shortly with German Chancellor Angela Merkel.The French newspaper La Provence, citing aviation officials, said the Airbus plane carried at least 142 passengers, two pilots and four flight attendants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 CNN is having a field day with this accident.One source says the aircraft crashed at 10:37am and other source says the aircraft sent out an emergency call from the pilots at 10:45am .....Me thinks it is best to wait until the "black-boxes" tell the tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 The article above is already making it sound like there's been another altitude excursion and stall event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Airbus details flight history of crashed A320By: DAVID KAMINSKI-MORROWLONDONSource: in 5 hoursAirbus has disclosed that the Germanwings A320 involved in the accident in the French Alps had accumulated 58,300h.It confirms the airframe as MSN147, registered D-AIPX. The aircraft was originally delivered toLufthansa, the parent of Germanwings, in 1991. AirTeamImagesAirbus says the aircraft had conducted around 46,700 flights. It has not given any information about its maintenance record.Germanwings states that there were 144 passengers and six crew members on board flight 4U9525 from Barcelona to Dusseldorf.France's BEA will take charge of the investigation into the accident. Airbus says it will provide support to the inquiry with a group of technical advisers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 It would appear that the aircraft DID NOT make any emergency calls.Apparently it was ATC that was using the French word for "Emergency", (Urgence), when they could not get any radio contact with the aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Looking at data plots on pprune the profile certainly looks like aircraft in automated flight with either HDG or NAV mode and SPD (Mach transition to IAS) active and power at idle thrust. No significant variations in lateral track or ground speed from cruise altitude to last radar plot (impact with terrain).Images show near total hull disintegration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 What I have not read is anything about the last transmission to/from the aircraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Obviously there's plenty of potential for bad info so early on but it's starting to look like there were no transmissions once the descent began. If true, that is not a good sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Germanwings A320 left cruising altitude after 1minBy: MICHAEL GUBISCHLONDONSource: in 5 hoursGermanwings has disclosed that the Airbus A320 lost over the French Alps today initiated its descent about 1min after reaching its cruising altitude.The aircraft – en route from Barcelona to Dusseldorf – had departed the Spanish city's El Prat airport at 10:01 local time. It reached its regular cruising altitude of 38,000ft at 10:45, but left that altitude around 1min later as it approached the French coast, said Germanwings chief executive Thomas Winkelmann at a press conference in Cologne today.He says the descent lasted around 8min before radar contact was lost at an altitude of approximately 6,000ft, above mountainous terrain in the French Alps.The flightcrew had not requested clearance to leave the cruising altitude.It has not been confirmed whether or not the crew issued an emergency call. Germanwings chief pilot Stefan Kenan-Scheib says the airline has been given conflicting reports by French radar stations about an emergency call from the aircraft. The conflict had not been resolved by the time of the press conference.The aircraft had undergone a regular line check at Dusseldorf yesterday. Its last C-check was conducted in accordance with the manufacturer's maintenance schedule in summer 2013, says Winkelmann.Kenan-Scheib says the aircraft's computers had been upgraded to the latest software standard.A report from news agency The Associated Press quotes French interior minister Bernard Cazeneuve as saying that a black box has been located at the crash site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 38K seems awfully high for a fully loaded A320. Does this type have a Bleeds Off takeoff procedure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 38K seems awfully high for a fully loaded A320. Does this type have a Bleeds Off takeoff procedure?I guess we're thinking 'hypoxia" ? I wouldn't think it would be "fully loaded" in the sense of fuel....it was just a two hour flight.Never flew the 320 so I wouldn't know but would it not have an alarm in the cockpit if cabin altitude exceeded 10-14000 feet??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Yes, it does have a bleeds-off procedure; however, if the company used Airbus SOPs, the after takeoff checklist does check that the packs are on. Not to mention you'd get an ECAM warning if the cabin altitude exceeded 10,000'. Passenger oxygen masks would automatically deploy above 14,000'. An unpressurized climb would be hard to miss.WRT the altitude, it would be tight, but doable. From memory, an A320 can get to FL380 at a GW of roughly 67T (depends a bit on engine type) and FL390 around 64.5T. With an empty weight around 44T, that leaves 23T for fuel and payload. I'm guessing fuel would be roughly 8T on that flight which leaves 15T for payload. More than enough to cover 144 pax.Perhaps a heavier than official dispatch weight? Not the first charter flight to have an error on the W&B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 The ECAM also reminds you that the packs are still off as soon as you pass 1500 ft AGL. Given the sophistication of the systems involved, a Helios type scenario is damned difficult to do an an A320. I'm not dismissing the notion of a pressurization issue, just not one like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Thanks! That should remove at least one of the possible scenarios...Very sad nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Caveat...I don't consider this kind of ADS-B data wholly reliable. That said, some have worked with what they have and produced the data below.The first thing I noticed in the available ADS-B data is that the speed continued to increase and not stay at the LRC chart speed of 447kts for FL380, (interpolated). In my experience the A320’s (and the 319s, 330s & 340s) autothrust system performed flawlessly. An increase in speed could mean that the autothrust was, for reasons unknown, not engaged – in this case the engines remain at about 92% or so, (CFM56). The aircraft was at FL380 for about 10 seconds after which the descent began, with a commensurate further increase in speed – whether the N1s were still at 92% is a guess. With idle thrust the rate of descent is not unusual, but the speed, (TAS) is – it would be lower with normal descent rates. But both are higher than normal. 490kts @ FL254 is about M0.82.Second thing is, the speed protections did not engage to pitch the aircraft up when an overspeed like this occurs. Yet the heading is steady after the 20deg left turn, until loss of data, so there was some control.If the protections did not engage, it could be a repeat of the Lufthansa A321 event, (and others), as per the EASA AD issued first in 2012, then re-issued last December after the recent event. The question will be, was the crew (and the airline) aware of the AD?...almost certainly!, but…Other scenarios?...fire on board with smoke overcoming the crew perhaps with badly limited visibility,…a runaway stabilizer,…an intervention,...failure of all flight control computers,...loss of all hydraulics? Except possibly the first scenario, I don’t think so... again, after the 20deg left turn at FL380, the heading never varied during the descent so there was some measure of control over bank angle the airplane. Besides, given an otherwise healthy airplane the A320 can be flown quite nicely with all computers gone using manual stabilizer & differential thrust – it’s a sim exercise – tricky (and much trickier on the A330), but it can be done – I just don’t sense that here.A slow or rapid depressurization? – too many ECAM messages to miss the slow one before getting too high, and the rapid depressurization would likely have been an ACARS message (if installed), and like AF447, we’d know something was up – besides an emergency descent as a result of a rapid depressurization is a controlled manoeuvre and this appears only partially controlled – I don’t think the airplane was all “theirs”, or the airplane didn’t have them.Understand they have one recorder, so we should know more soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 There is a picture of the damaged CVRInvestigators arrive at Germanwings A320 crash site By: MICHAEL GUBISCHLONDONSource: in 6 hoursLufthansa has sent a team of pilots and technical experts to the site where a Germanwings Airbus A320 crashed yesterday, to support the air accident investigation effort.The safety pilot at Lufthansa's mainline operation, his counterpart at the budget subsidiary, an aircraft software expert from the group's IT division and a maintenance engineer have arrived at the location near the commune of Barcelonnette in the French Alps, said Germanwings chief executive Thomas Winklemann during a press conference in Cologne today.Along with representatives of Airbus and German air accident investigation authority BFU, they will support the probe led by French agency BEA. Yesterday, rescue teams retrieved the aircraft's cockpit voice recorder. http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/investigators-arrive-at-germanwings-a320-crash-site-410550/BEABEA has shared images of the jet's CVRGermanwings has arranged for tomorrow two special flights from Dusseldorf and a service fromBarcelona for families of victims to travel to the site of the crash, in which 144 passengers and six crew members were killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feather Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 If oxygen mask checks are not done prior to departure, is there any warning that a valve might be closed on the crew oxygen supply? There would be only about 20-30 seconds at fl380 before incapacitation without oxygen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 No, no warnings that the valve is closed. The mask check prior to every departure is to ensure 100% is selected and that there is flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILB Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 If the protections did not engage, it could be a repeat of the Lufthansa A321 event, (and others)...Is this the one you are referring to?"After the aircraft climbed clear of top of clouds at about FL200 the flight data recorder recorded a fixed value of +4.2 degrees for the left hand AoA sensor, less than a minute later the FDR began to record a fixed value of +4.6 degrees for the right hand AoA sensor. The aircraft subsequently turned to fly direct to LATEK waypoint, during this turn the captain noticed the Alpha Protection Band had unusually and significantly increased. The first officer therefore reduced the climb rate from 800 to 500 feet per minute to enable the aircraft to accelerate. A short time later the first officer disengaged the autopilot and gave a brief nose down input.The aircraft however continued to pitch down, inputs to counter the pitch down remained without effect. About 45 seconds after the nose down began the first officer alerted the captain who took control of the aircraft, that at this time had reached a rate of descent of 4000 feet per minute and a pitch of -3.5 degrees. The captain provided a maximum nose up input which caused the aircraft to pitch up again and the rate of descent decreased and the aircraft entered level flight.The captain was able to maintain altitude by providing a continuous nose up input deflecting the side stick about 50% of its travel. The autopilot could not be engaged again, and a manual nose up trim was not possible."More here: http://avherald.com/h?article=47d74074/0000&opt=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Yes, that's the one ILB. The EASA AD can be found here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Hi Rich - there are some who are expressing the notion of a blown windshield...I can't truly imagine what the cockpit would be like under those circumstances.I'm not 100% confident that the ADS-B data is reliable. There are a lot of delays in such a system, and flight tracking programs aren't real data programs. For example, I sent the info off to an engineer friend and he couldn't make the descent rates work as shown in the chart I posted although he had surmised very early that the descent was close to MMO/VMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innuendo Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Don H, sent you a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 The NY Times is reporting that one of the pilots was locked out of the flightdeck, and could not regain entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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