Mad Hatters

[blues deville]

Lufthansa loses hat battle with male pilots. If they all look as good as the fellow in the photo (see link) then I don't think it was worth going to court.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/sep/30/lufthansa-pilot-hats-males

[DEFCON]

Why don't they just require the females to wear hats?

[Seeker]

Some guys are just too cool to wear the hat - you see them walking through the terminal, pulling the roller bag with one hand and carrying the hat in their other hand. What they are really saying is; "I'm so proud of my hair that I don't want to wear a hat and mess it up but I'm too much of a wimp to leave it at home, so I carry it in case I meet a manager and I can quickly put it on and fake like I was wearing it the whole time." I guess they don't know that everyone else thinks they are fools.

Personally, I like the hat.

[cp fa]

Another ridiculous example of misuse of human rights laws. Those laws came into being to prevent people from being exploited, so that blacks didn't have to sit in the back of the bus, so that women had the right to vote, and to prevent the use of child labour, and calling this a human rights issue is exploitive, IMO. When your employer is paying you a great deal of money to do a job, and wearing a hat is part of your job, you're not being exploited, you're fortunate. This is a first world problem.

On the other hand, those hats do look like they were purchased at Toys r Us.

[Thebean]

Don't mention the war.

[cp fa]

Don't mention the war.

Hahahaha!!!

[cp fa]

Why don't they just require the females to wear hats?

While I agree that it seems a rather obvious solution, I think if you take a look at uniform standards, you will find that there is a difference in how men and women are expected to wear their hair, among others. So if a male pilot wants to wear a ponytail, is that a human rights issue? How about earrings?

What about female undergarments? Are female pilots required to wear a bra? Is that discriminatory? I don't think the intent of uniform standards should be for men and women to look exactly alike, but to look equally professional.

[acsidestick]

The AC female pilot hat (a bowler) look ridiculous and I've only ever seen one worn. On the other hand, they could make the standard hat with a hole on the back like a baseball cap so the ponytail could be pulled through . I did work with one particularly attractive female pilot who threw her hair around for a fluffing each time she took the hat off. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I did think it reminded me of a Strippagram, and in a world of rights and the search for equality, this lady will never need to worry about being anyone's equal.

[DEFCON]

cpfa

I’ve never heard of a single case in the western world where a male pilot has sought to wear a ponytail, or earrings, although you’d have to believe someone somewhere must have taken on the challenge? Personally speaking, I abandoned the hippie look after high school in favour of the military style cut and will necessarily keep my thoughts on male earrings to myself.

I have seen all kinds of themes in the lid designs women wear and can safely say that none really look all that attractive. Personal preferences aside, I think the carrier does have an absolute Right to require its employees compliance with their very reasonable dress code no matter whether they be male, or female.

Kip posted a video the other day in which four female pilots, all wearing the standard male lid, were walking through a terminal on their way to fly a 763 over to the US bone-yard. I noticed their hats immediately because of the ‘style’ and although I could never describe the ‘uniformed’ look of any of them as ‘sexy’, there is a reality; all the variations in female hair length / style makes the selection of a standardized hat quite impossible and therefore, no single hat style will ever look good on all women. I don’t think it should, or could ever come to this, but in the extreme, perhaps women aviators ought to have a standard of some sort with respect to their hair style?

[cp fa]

I think we agree on most of this Defcon, my post was mostly about whether differences in male/female uniform regs constitute human rights violations. You lost me with the comment about whether female pilot hats looked 'sexy' though. I wouldn't think that was relevant to the discussion.

There is no requirement IMO for a company to come up with a uniform that makes every single person, male or female, look attractive. It's just not possible. I do think though that it would be possible to pick one hat, and require that female pilots choose a hair style that will both accommodate and complement that hat. I think most reasonable people understand the point of uniform standards, and have no problem complying with them.

[deicer]

From CpFa:

What about female undergarments? Are female pilots required to wear a bra? Is that discriminatory?

Does this standard hold for male pilots who like to wear female undergarments?

[DEFCON]

"You lost me with the comment about whether female pilot hats looked 'sexy' though. I wouldn't think that was relevant to the discussion."

My remarks were an attempt to suggest that neither uniform, nor hat, are flattering to the female pilot, no matter who might be wearing it. Although some guys do look good in uniform, probably because it's design suits the male form, individuality ensures that we will always be certain to observe many failures of that notion in motion within terminal areas.

As far as Human Rights, Equality and other relative concepts go, I generally steer clear of the debate. From my pov, the authorities appear to be motivated to craft rules intended to give those they perceive to be at a disadvantage, an advantage, or a step up over their presumed competition than they are in insuring any sense of equal. Iow’s, I just can't see the equal in the application of law as per Equal Rights legislation.

[cp fa]

I don't think the intent of a pilot's uniform should be to look flattering. It should be to look professional.

[acsidestick]

cpfaI’ve never heard of a single case in the western world where a male pilot has sought to wear a ponytail, or earringse?

Defcon, I was contemplating posting a picture of a Jazz Pilot going through the bypass in YYC who did, indeed, have a Ponytail out the back of his hat. I don't believe it would be ok to do that here.

As to the earring, AC does have 1 EMJ Captain in YYZ who wears (or did) a diamond stud.

I believe both of these individuals are seeking a fight which they can probably win with damages and then take early retirement.

The thing which really boils me when I see this is I'm sure on initial interview day there were no visible earrings, ponytails, nose rings, and tattoos. They were covered up and hidden, just waiting till probation was over so that the lawsuit fight could begin.

[DEFCON]

“I don't think the intent of a pilot's uniform should be to look flattering. It should be to look professional.”

cp fa

Okay, I’ll borrow from you above and express my sentiments in another way; 'the uniform design can be flattering to the image of the professional pilot'. I apologize for using the word sexy; it’s a typically male and maybe a little bit sexist descriptive characterization of the look.

As I tried to explain, (my failure, not yours) the physically observable deportment of most, although not all, male pilots in full dress uniform generally compliments the profession. However, that is not always the case. It’s unfortunate, but the tunic and hat pieces of the uniform are not particularly well suited to the female physique; for lack of a better term, the uniform causes a woman to look 'frumpy', which is not a look that’s flattering to her, or the profession. For reference I would draw your attention to the business world where women dress to serve all considerations.

[Innuendo]

I wonder how many hats are worn because one hand is pulling the bag on wheels and the other is holding the Timmies/Starbucks.

[Mitch Cronin]

I've been holding off from voicing my opinion on this one because I suspect it's much like the rest of my thoughts... unlike most others'...?

But at this moment, I don't care, so .... I think the moment pilots uniforms began resembling more of a suit and tie than a military uniform, they took on the quality of a servant's costume... Like a doorman, mailman, milkman, or the old Texaco gas jockey.

The hat can either add to that appearance, or begin to correct it.

Professional looking, in my view, doesn't look like a costume. I guess the military uniform has been burned into my head since childhood as about as professional looking as it gets, for men. (I wonder if that's more common among 'boomers'?) For women, I don't think you can beat a nicely tailored suit. Dresses and skirts just make me want to look under the hood.

[boestar]

I agree Mitch. The military uniform look is the most professional looking.

[acsidestick]

Mitch,

I don't believe you're line maintainance, but I'm sure at some point, you have associated regularly with the pilots. Have you ever had a time when it takes a moment or two to figure out who the pilots were. I would say probably not. The uniform immediately tells you who they are.

This is not by chance. Going back in history, militarily, the point of a uniform was not to look professional, but to immediately know which side is which, and who to swing the axe at.

I have read studies over the years that have tested evacuations times and Pax responses. People gravitate to the person yelling at them with THE HAT. Secondary is the person with the Uniform, and lastly is the guy with the cutoff shorts on.

For this reason, most of our guys, as part of our emergency evacuation list will add the following "I will grab the QRH, a flashlight, and MY HAT and assist in the evacuation.

What I find very difficult is when AC decided to make the AMEs look the same as the Groomers, the ramp agents and the Thales avionics guy.

Every time we exit the aircraft, we usually want to talk briefly to an AME. We always do a little dance with groomers/caterers/inflight entertainment etc. Sometimes the guy with the tools is not the AME and need to read his/her title on their safety vest (licensed aircraft technician).

The same thing happens with FAs/CSAs who wear an almost identical uniform. I hate having to establish Bona Fides before moving on to what needs to be said.

[Seeker]

But at this moment, I don't care, so .... I think the moment pilots uniforms began resembling more of a suit and tie than a military uniform, they took on the quality of a servant's costume... Like a doorman, mailman, milkman, or the old Texaco gas jockey.

I think the AC pilot uniform looks very much like a military uniform. Probably the worst I've ever seen is a JetBlue pilot uniform - blue shirt with blue stripes on the epaulettes (and no hat either). Those guys look like bus drivers.

[mo32a]

I don't believe you're line maintainance, but I'm sure at some point, you have associated regularly with the pilots. Have you ever had a time when it takes a moment or two to figure out who the pilots were. I would say probably not. The uniform immediately tells you who they are.

This is not by chance. Going back in history, militarily, the point of a uniform was not to look professional, but to immediately know which side is which, and who to swing the axe at.

I have read studies over the years that have tested evacuations times and Pax responses. People gravitate to the person yelling at them with THE HAT. Secondary is the person with the Uniform, and lastly is the guy with the cutoff shorts on.

For this reason, most of our guys, as part of our emergency evacuation list will add the following "I will grab the QRH, a flashlight, and MY HAT and assist in the evacuation.

What I find very difficult is when AC decided to make the AMEs look the same as the Groomers, the ramp agents and the Thales avionics guy.

Every time we exit the aircraft, we usually want to talk briefly to an AME. We always do a little dance with groomers/caterers/inflight entertainment etc. Sometimes the guy with the tools is not the AME and need to read his/her title on their safety vest (licensed aircraft technician).

The same thing happens with FAs/CSAs who wear an almost identical uniform. I hate having to establish Bona Fides before moving on to what needs to be said.

The same thing now when you go into a hospital, everybody walks around wearing scrubs so you don't know whether your talking to a Doctor, Nurse, Aide, or janitor.

[boestar]

Every time we exit the aircraft, we usually want to talk briefly to an AME. We always do a little dance with groomers/caterers/inflight entertainment etc. Sometimes the guy with the tools is not the AME and need to read his/her title on their safety vest (licensed aircraft technician).

Pardon me for this but it is a pet peeve.

As someone who has spent 25 years in this profession I hate the term TECHNICIAN. We are ENGINEERS we earned the name and fought to keep it. By virtue of being licensed we are Aircraft Maintenance Engineers. (AME's). We are members of a PROFESSION not a Trade. I know LAT is a term given by the airline but the airline and the union do their AME members a dis service by referring to them as such. The language in both groups documents refer to this language.

/rant

[acsidestick]

Sorry, I agree, Engineer is the term that should be used. I'm just trying to picture in my mind what the reflective vest says. If it is Technician, then why doesn't a stink get made over it. I think it says Aircraft Technical Services.

[DEFCON]

From Wikipedia:

"Medieval and early modern tradition recognised only three professions: divinity, medicine, and law[3]—the so-called "learned professions".[4]"

I think it's kind of humourous to note the confounding influence these three 'professional' & learned vocations have created in society today.

[Seeker]

Interesting. I have always referred to the guy with the license who maintains the aircraft as the "engineer" both to them directly and when simply talking about them. This probably goes back to my first groundschool instructor. In my family there is a guy who drives a train on the CPR mainline - engineer, and several guys who hold university degrees who call them themselves engineers too.