Mas 777 Down

[CD]

Vid of the missile strike now online...

The video was posted last month and is reported to be of the AN-30 that was shot down in June:

Ukraine Military Aircraft Shot Down Over Slovyansk - June 6

[acsidestick]

At any point, they could have pulled out their iPhones and checked Flight Aware. It clearly shows it was MH17. They just didn't care.

[blues deville]

From The New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/jet-wreckage-bears-signs-of-impact-by-supersonic-missile-analysis-shows.html?_r=0

[J.O.]

I knew straight away that the video wasn't MH17. It doesn't show an aircraft breaking up over a wide area as MH17 did.

[W5]

Press Release from the Flight Safety Foundation:

FSF Calls for High-Level Ministerial Summit, Criminal Responsibility, in Wake of MH17

Alexandria, VA, July 21, 2014 - The Flight Safety Foundation today requested today that the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) call for a High-Level Ministerial meeting to review the systems in place to warn airlines of hostile airspace and take action in response to the shoot down of Malaysia Airlines 17 in the Ukraine, and for authorities to bring criminal prosecutions against those who brought down the aircraft and interfered with the investigation. "This tragically unfolding affront to safety, security, and humanity must be dealt with swiftly and surely by the international aviation community and law enforcement," said Jon Beatty, President and CEO of the Flight Safety Foundation.

"Where known threats to civil aviation exist, States should assess and widely publish this information, or close the airspace. If States cannot discharge their responsibilities to manage their airspace safely, ICAO should play a leading role to alerting or prohibiting airlines from flying through known, hostile airspace," Beatty further stated.

"The failure to secure the wreckage, the refusal to grant full and unimpeded access to investigators, the delay in turning over the cockpit voice recorder and digital flight data recorder, and the inhumane treatment of MH 17 victims' remains represent appalling acts of inhumanity and interference," Beatty continued. "Those obstructing this investigation should be held criminally responsible. ICAO investigators must be given immediate and unimpeded access to the site.

While noting that FSF is often against the criminalization of aviation accidents, Beatty stated: "Let's be clear: this is now a crime scene, not an accident scene; the perpetrators of this barbaric act of sabotage, must be held criminally responsible."

"If States are unwilling or unable to discharge their responsibilities in the wake of a downed civil aircraft, ICAO must be ready and able to assert control over the investigation," Beatty concluded.

Flight Safety Foundation is an independent, non-profit, international organization engaged in research, education, advocacy and publishing to improve aviation safety. The Foundation's mission is to be the leading voice of safety for the global aerospace community.

[CanadaEH]

It crashed in a war zone. Do they think investigators are going to be welcomed with open arms? In a perfect world yea but there are two sides trying to fight for their beliefs and will kill for it. Humanity isn't exactly something there is much appetite for.

[blues deville]

ABC news report video

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/malaysian-airlines-flight-17-shot-sa-11-missile-24644246

[CanadaEH]

AC joins US airlines in cancelling flights to TLV over safety fears:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/delta-us-airways-cancel-flights-to-israel-over-safety-fears/article19707023/

[blues deville]

Apparently a credit card of one of the crash victims has somehow tried to go shopping in the Ukraine. I have a feeling many personal items have gone missing since this aircraft was shot down.

Someone needs to be taught a lesson.

[inchman]

AC joins US airlines in cancelling flights to TLV over safety fears:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/delta-us-airways-cancel-flights-to-israel-over-safety-fears/article19707023/

Civilian commercial flights should never go into a war zone, declared or undeclared.

The Israelis say it's safe, suggesting that the airlines are bowing to the terrorists, while setting off air raid sirens in the terminal, essentially bowing to the terror themselves.

If it's safe, then there is no reason to head for shelter.

Hamas have now proven that they can reach the airport with their missiles and the Iron Dome clearly doesn't knock down every missile.

Considering flying into TLV before the current situation comes to a complete end is folly.

[Johnny]

North and South Korea are still (technically) at war.

[inchman]

North and South Korea are still (technically) at war.

Touché, but not quite the same situation, IMO.

[boestar]

Yet...

[Maverick]

Yet...

Inappropriate smiley aside, you might be right.

Kim Jong mk3 is, if the media is to be believed, a rather unstable character that could very well shoot down one of the hundreds of jetliners that pass by North Korea every day.

[blues deville]

Worrying about North Korea? Here is a recent photo of their attempt to invade Hawaii

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02506/kim-jong-un-boat_2506851k.jpg

[boestar]

The is my indication that even he would not make that mistake.

[J.O.]

ABC news report video

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/malaysian-airlines-flight-17-shot-sa-11-missile-24644246

That report, if true, belies any suggestion that the situation was already a "known issue" and that no one should have been there. There was no expectation that the rebels would be armed with a serious weapon of war like the BUK surface to air missile. It's a major escalation above the shoulder launched weapon that the rebels had used to bring down Ukraine military aircraft in the days previous. This is equivalent to the Russians giving them a few Suhkoi fighters "just because". The story also points the finger straight at Moscow where it truly belongs.

[W5]

http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/24/mh-17-puncture-marks/

Evidence of shrapnel damage to the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 has emerged from images taken at the crash site.

Photos taken at the MH17 crash site clearly show shrapnel signs on various parts of the wreckage of the Boeing 777 shot down over eastern Ukraine while en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur with 298 people on board.

Among all the images published on media outlets from all around the world, the one first published by Financial Times over the past weekend, struck our attention.

The piece of wreckage, reportedly measuring 1 mt sq, has a couple of distinctive features that may help the identification: the colored stripes of the Malaysia Airlines livery and the bolts of the cockpit side windshield.

Based on these details, with the help of our contributor Giuliano Ranieri, we were able to identify the piece as a chunk of front fuselage located next to the cockpit (slightly below it), on the left hand side of the plane.

The piece has several burn marks, a large central hole and several smaller punture marks surrouding it. The edges of the small holes seem to be bent outwards, evidence of something that got out of the skin from the inside of the plane.

This is a sign the missile, most probably fired by an SA-11 system according to almost all reports to date, equipped with aproximity fuse, detonated on the right side of the aircraft not too far from the nose, scattering several fragments of shrapnel so fast that they traversed the plane from side to side: they entered through the right side of the airframe and got out from the left one.

Furthermore, considering the amount of puncture marks concentrated at the base of the cockpit window’s we can assume both pilots were invested by high speed, hot shrapnels that most probably did not give them time to realize what was going on.

[Thebean]

With MH17 so fresh in everyone's minds, why would any commercial carrier be even considering operating flights into Tel Aviv at this time? It is simply asking for trouble.

If people want to fly to Tel Aviv under these circumstances, let El Al do the heavy lifting.

Their fleet has for years been rumored to be equipped with all sorts of gadgets usually found on military aircraft to counter various scenarios that might present themselves in this sort of situation.

However, no one has the technology to prevent a stick of mortar shells from walking into a fully loaded wide body taxiing out for departure and it's pretty obvious there are some cretins floating around that part of the world that wouldn't think twice about taking a run at that given half a chance.

I wonder what the various pilot and flight attendant Unions have to say about this? I don't think anyone would quibble about their collective uneasiness about operating this sector.

It's nice that the Israeli govt is doing what it can to "mitigate the potential risks to commercial aircraft"' but why place your employees, your customers and your business in a position of risk in the first place?

[inchman]

With MH17 so fresh in everyone's minds, why would any commercial carrier be even considering operating flights into Tel Aviv at this time? It is simply asking for trouble.

If people want to fly to Tel Aviv under these circumstances, let El Al do the heavy lifting.

Their fleet has for years been rumored to be equipped with all sorts of gadgets usually found on military aircraft to counter various scenarios that might present themselves in this sort of situation.

However, no one has the technology to prevent a stick of mortar shells from walking into a fully loaded wide body taxiing out for departure and it's pretty obvious there are some cretins floating around that part of the world that wouldn't think twice about taking a run at that given half a chance.

I wonder what the various pilot and flight attendant Unions have to say about this? I don't think anyone would quibble about their collective uneasiness about operating this sector.

It's nice that the Israeli govt is doing what it can to "mitigate the potential risks to commercial aircraft"' but why place your employees, your customers and your business in a position of risk in the first place?

I agree 100%. A lot of pressure on very senior Air Canada people, IMO... just like there was on Bloomberg.

There was a shell intercepted almost directly over the airport about an hour after the FAA lifted their ban.... so no shells may land at the airport due to the Iron Dome but shrapnel may be in the air. Not a good mix with aluminum or engines.

There was too much politics in the insistence by Israeli government spokespeople that the airport is safe. And too much talking with forked tongue. On one side they justify killing Gazan civilians by saying that that they can't live with the dangers posed by Hamas firing rockets, then on the other side say that there is no danger. So which is it/

I have a TLV in my block for next month and I won't be going unless there is a clear improvement in the situation. I enjoy TLV layovers but civilian crewmembers should not be going to war zones, declared or undeclared.

[Don Hudson]

A couple of developments, not directly related to the "investigation", (such as it is, it being not permitted to proceed),

The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) will hold a high-level meeting with the director generals of the International Air Transport Association (IATA), Airports Council International (ACI) and the Civil Air Navigation Services Organisation (CANSO) tomorrow to discuss the aviation risks in conflict zones.

"This meeting will discuss the appropriate actions to be pursued in order to more effectively mitigate potential risks to civil aviation arising from conflict zones," ICAO said in a statement.

The Association of European Airlines (AEA) had called for an international debate about airline security following the destruction of flight MH17.

"The downing of Malaysian Airlines' flight MH17, which was flying in approved international airspace, triggers questions about how risk assessments are made", said the AEA's CEO, Athar Husain Khan.

"Together with the International Air Transport Association and our member airlines we ask for an international debate about airspace security guidance, preferably organised by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO)."

http://www.afm.aero/news/item/1767-icao-to-review-air-safety-in-conflict-zones

And,

FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Germany's pilots' union criticised a decision by Air Berlin and Lufthansa [LUFT.UL] to resume flights to Israel, ending a ban imposed in response to fears that rockets fired from the Gaza Strip may hit aircraft.

Lufthansa and Air Berlin said they will resume flights to Israel's Ben Gurion Airport on Saturday, the same day a 12-hour humanitarian truce agreed by Israel and Hamas began.

The truce comes after nearly 3 weeks of conflict in which 940 Palestinians, many of them civilians, have been killed, along with 37 Israeli soldiers and 3 civilians.

Joerg Handwerg, a board member at German pilots' union Vereinigung Cockpit said the decision seemed driven by political and economic factors rather than by security reasons.

"We should not be flying to locations where shots are being fired," Handwerg said. The truce was only temporary and Israel's rocket defence system appeared unable to hold up all rockets, he said.

Handwerg said he had demanded that airlines ensure that staff only agree to go on flights on a voluntary basis.

A spokesman for Lufthansa said the airline was constantly monitoring the security situation at Tel Aviv airport, using all available security information.

"A decision on whether or not to fly is made purely on the basis of security considerations," Lufthansa said.

Lufthansa Group also operates the airlines Germanwings, Austrian Airlines and Swiss.

The European Cockpit Association, (ECA) which represents 38,000 European pilots from 37 European states, declined to comment on the lifting of the flight ban, but said they were concerned about a lack of transparency.

"The main issue is that there is no common understanding of the risk assessment process being used or assurance that the assessment for all airline operators is being fed by the best available intelligence," ECA said in an e-mailed statement.

"This makes it difficult to judge if the security situation has indeed changed or not, and whether the resulting action taken is appropriate."

On July 22, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) imposed a ban on flights by U.S. airlines to Ben Gurion, Israel's main hub, in response to a Palestinian rocket that struck a building 2 kilometres away from the airport.

The FAA has since lifted the ban.

Israel said the damage was debris from a mid-air rocket interception by its Iron Dome missile defence system, which it says has been successful in protecting Ben Gurion Airport, along with a precautionary measure of narrowing of air corridors.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/26/uk-pilots-lufthansa-tech-israel-idUKKBN0FV0I320140726

[DEFCON]

Can you can see the caption under the picture now, 'An Air XX Boeing 787 lays burning after being struck by a shoulder fired missile experts say. Israeli PM responds immediately with an increase in military operations intended to increase pressure on Hamas and vows to rain hell down on those responsible.

[Guest longtimer]

Can you can see the caption under the picture now, 'An Air XX Boeing 787 lays burning after being struck by a shoulder fired missile experts say. Israeli PM responds immediately with an increase in military operations intended to increase pressure on Hamas and vows to rain hell down on those responsible.

I would be ok with that but only if the "hell" was rained on those responsible and not on innocent civilians who have / had no control over the those who did the deed.

[J.O.]

Innocent yes but also foolish to allow Hamas to use them as pawns in their game (and as human shields).

[acsidestick]

I would be ok with that but only if the "hell" was rained on those responsible and not on innocent civilians who have / had no control over the those who did the deed.

Hamas was ELECTED in 2006 by a majority. The won 74 of the 132 and took 44.45 % of the vote. Hamas was an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and was elected on a platform of Death to Israel, and support of terrorism to gain their voice.

The innocents referred to are those who didn't vote for them, or those who were too young to vote. There are definitely though, a huge portion of the population who are directly responsible for the "hell" they find themselves in.