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When asked for comment, Air Canada said it has been avoiding the area even before the crash. Angela Mah, a spokeswoman for Air Canada, said the airline had been "proactively" avoiding that airspace for some time.

What route does AC fly that could possibly overfly this area?

Bean, in the past, the westbound leg of TLVYYZ takes you near Crimea and over Kiev if the winds favoured it.

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With MH17 so fresh in everyone's minds, why would any commercial carrier be even considering operating flights into Tel Aviv at this time? It is simply asking for trouble. If people want to fly to

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Europe won't do it - they rely too much on energy from Russia. The US won't do it - there's zero appetite among Americans for any more conflicts. Too bad, Putin is dangerous - way worse than Saddam ever was and we know what happened to him.

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Europe won't do it - they rely too much on energy from Russia. The US won't do it - there's zero appetite among Americans for any more conflicts. Too bad, Putin is dangerous - way worse than Saddam ever was and we know what happened to him.

And unlike Saddam, Putin has "weapons of mass destruction"
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This gets more and more disgusting.

It's still unclear who will take the lead on the investigation into Malaysia Airlines flight 17. Meanwhile rescue workers appear unorganized and passenger belongings have been looted.

NORTH OF GRABOVO, Ukraine - The black handbag lay on the field turning muddy from the rain. A beige wallet lay next to it, open, near credit cards and photographs carefully lined up next to each other on the wet grass, ordinary pictures of loved ones: son, daughter, father and mother.

The scene was replicated across the field - camera holders missing cameras, wallets missing cash, cosmetics and other items scattered in random patterns after a jet disintegrated and fell from the sky.

A day after a Malaysian airliner was shot down by a surface-to-air missile, killing all 298 aboard, twisted wreckage and mangled bodies remained uncollected as emergency personnel searched the site Friday.

In some areas of this field, near the small town of Grabovo in a remote eastern Ukrainian farming region close to the Russian border, backpacks and other carry-on luggage were grouped together. It was clear that looters had opened and rifled through some of them.

As Ukraine and Russia, along with the pro-Russian separatists who have taken control of the region, fight over who gets to manage the scene, the recovery operation has become chaotic, and the typical procedures used to aid the investigation into the crash have been compromised.

Rain fell Friday afternoon over bodies that remained on the field, and they weren't covered up to protect them. Such scenes are normally cordoned off, but men randomly walked the area, finding an item or a limb, then staking the ground to mark the site with a stick that had a white piece of fabric twisted around it.

Absent was the "grid" walk at such scenes, where organized teams in a line walk a grid pattern to make sure nothing is left uncovered. Also missing was any organized way of categorizing the debris - description, location, photo - that is standard procedure for a crime scene.

Nor was there any effort to secure personal items, such as a Winnie the Pooh bear or a Minnie Mouse lunchbox, that belonged to victims so they could be returned to their families.

Many of the dead have been identified through passports found at the scene, where some victims were miraculously intact. Others were too mangled or burned to be identifiable.

Passengers strapped to their seats were found in contorted positions. Next to one young man was a watch separated from its strap. It's display showed 15:54.

Residents said they were in shock over what happened. Some said they cried Thursday as they rushed out to help, only to realize they were helpless to save anyone. Several took photographs of the scene.

Alexander Aleksandrovich and his teenage grandson, Cyril, said a part of the jet's body and the engine just missed their house and landed nearby in a charred pit.

They attributed the miss to a large Orthodox Christian cross they erected on their land last year. "As my wife told me, (the plane) was heading towards (the house),'" Aleksandrovich said. "She came out of the town to see the plane coming. It started to fragment and crashed across the road.

"It was by the grace of God we are still alive - what other kind of power could have pushed it aside so that it didn't fall on peaceful people. The cross protected us - we survived."

Cyril said his father and mother had to be taken to the hospital because of exposure to the jet fuel's fumes, which is highly toxic.

Though the world's focus is on the tragic end for 298 passengers, residents said the separatists' fight for autonomy from the national government in Kiev shouldn't get lost.

"Remember, we are still fighting here," Aleksandrovich said. "Let's not forget about that."

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J.O. disgusting indeed but sadly all we can expect in a war zone. Here is a update from the BBC

21 July 2014 Last updated at 09:52 ET Share this pageEmail Print Share this page

MH17 plane crash: Dutch experts examine bodiesLatest

Pro-Russian rebels have allowed Dutch investigators to examine bodies from the crashed Malaysia Airlines plane at a railway station in eastern Ukraine.

The three Dutch experts said the train might leave the town of Torez later.

All 298 people on board flight MH17 died when it crashed over the rebel-held area on 17 July. The US and other nations say there is growing evidence of Russian complicity in the crash.

Meanwhile, heavy fighting is reported in the main rebel-held city of Donetsk.

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another update from the BBC

21 July 2014 Last updated at 19:53 ETMH17 plane crash: Ukraine rebels hand over black

Rebels in eastern Ukraine have handed over two flight-data recorders from the downed MH17 plane to Malaysian experts.

A senior rebel leader signed them over to the Malaysian officials at a meeting in the city of Donetsk.

The handover came hours after the UN Security Council voted unanimously to demand immediate international access to the crash site.

The Malaysian Airlines passenger jet crashed last Thursday, killing all 298 people on board.

Western nations say there is growing evidence that flight MH17 was hit by a Russian-supplied missile fired by rebels, but Russia has suggested Ukrainian government forces are to blame.

'In good condition'

Experts say the "black boxes" will reveal the exact time of the incident and the altitude and exact position of the aircraft.

They should also contain the cockpit voice recorder, which it is hoped will provide clues as to what the cause of the crash was.

The head of the Malaysian delegation told reporters that the recorders were "in good condition".

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Not to sound flippant, but is there some doubt?

Agreed, other than the exploded bits that may, or may not provide clues, the CVR and DFDR can't really reveal anything of substance.

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Precisely and this morning's media hype touting their importance to learning "who brought the plane down" is very frustrating. Get a flippin' clue, people! I actually cursed at the guy on the radio this morning as if he could hear me. Morons.

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I have a feeling lawyers representing the families of these victims will attempt to lay blame against Malaysian with regards to the flight planning and possibly the weather deviation further north into the troubled area. They will want to hear what was said by the pilots during that last phase of the flight so these recordings may become a critical part of their legal action. Also perhaps the pilots asked for a southerly deviation from ATC and couldn't get it. Certainly not the cause of this horrible event but the conversations between the pilots and ATC may be interesting to hear.

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Why is everyone picking on Putin and the rebels? The basis of that war has nothing to do with the shoot-down of ML 17, which is imo, entirely the product of faulty decision making on the part of the regulatory authorities and air carriers.

Consider the facts; four, or more Ukrainian aircraft were shot down by missiles over a very short period of time in this very war-torn airspace and yet someone decided that nothing could go wrong if the war and all its flying missiles and bullets just stayed within the parameters as defined by Notam. That kind of thinking is pure nuts imho and of the same style that has lead to many hull losses.

Where's the logic; we flight plan and deviate around weather and volcanos, but not an extremely active war zone???

If an air carrier were to advise pax in advance that they, the carrier, planned to operate the flight directly through airspace where active aerial warfare was taking place and in which four aircraft had recently been shot-down; how many pax do you think would climb onboard? Would you? It'll be interesting to see how the insurance industry will respond considering most if not all insurance policies are void when it comes to acts of war; interpreting the Notam alone will probably result in a twenty year legal battle?

And finally....Will the industry that touts SAFETY as its first priority be forced to acknowledge that that isn't necessarily the case? Will the manager and regulator be left to continue spinning everyone with bs after the dust settles on this predictable incident? Personally, I expect that the travelling public will never receive, or even gain a modest sense of appreciation in respect of the truth behind the ML 17 shoot-down. It's also more than likely that those responsible will never be held to account and accordingly, they will move forward to find new and inventive ways to camouflage and promote risk as the route to greater profitability.

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