Yyz Gong Show

[Boney]

I believe there was a conference call prior to the decision.

[boestar]

yeah it kind og goes like this:

AC: Hello

WJ: Hey

GTAA: Prepare your selves we are closing the airport due to the prevailing conditions.

AC: OK

WJ: OK

GTAA: Bye

AC:BYE

WJ:BYE

[Guest rozar s'macco]

I had a delicious $14 breakfast sandwich. Tipped $2. Gotta pay for the ipad at every seat somehow I guess? It kills me how every airline is laser focussed on cutting costs and Pearson is putting in friggin Gucci stores and giant sculptures at the takeout stands.

[Seeker]

Capital expenditures on "Specialized" equipment for a weather event like this at pearson would cost the airlines and airport autorities millions and my not be used for 10-20-30 years.

I agree that spending vast sums for rare weather events is a waste but it still seems like there was a significant planning failure as well. I guess we'll see what comes out in the report.

[dagger]

I agree that spending vast sums for rare weather events is a waste but it still seems like there was a significant planning failure as well. I guess we'll see what comes out in the report.

I wonder if it's that expensive. You would need more backup power, large oil-fired heaters (not a big ticket item, even in bulk if amortized over their usable years, maybe a days' supply of -40C ice melter, and I'm just guessing here. The logistics seem more important. Assuring enough staff are available, even if it means having them come in early or double shift on OT and housing them at nearby hotels... improved coordination with the airlines... maybe having staff move the gate bridges in and out frequently to prevent icing-up? The airlines might also have to take some added precautions within a GTAA ice storm protocol.

A few years ago, the GTAA was knocked for its snowstorm and de-icing. Now, it's a lot better, mainly because there are more equipment and crews for doing both.

Question for GTAA types or others who know the answer: What is the state of the infield terminal in winter? Could it be activated in an emergency like this, if only to offload passengers into a warm area until they can be bused to the main terminal? Yes, some gate issues that occurred might affect operations there, but the same precautions to prevent freeze up could be employed there.

The bottom line is that the whole GTAA universe had at least 72 hours forewarning of an ice storm. That it had worse than expected consequences does not absolve the airport in particular for not taking better precautions.

[blues deville]

Question for GTAA types or others who know the answer: What is the state of the infield terminal in winter? Could it be activated in an emergency like this, if only to offload passengers into a warm area until they can be bused to the main terminal? Yes, some gate issues that occurred might affect operations there, but the same precautions to prevent freeze up could be employed there.

Good question. That ramp area and building seem to be empty 24/7.

[better4me]

Question for GTAA types or others who know the answer: What is the state of the infield terminal in winter? Could it be activated in an emergency like this, if only to offload passengers into a warm area until they can be bused to the main terminal? Yes, some gate issues that occurred might affect operations there, but the same precautions to prevent freeze up could be employed there.

The bottom line is that the whole GTAA universe had at least 72 hours forewarning of an ice storm. That it had worse than expected consequences does not absolve the airport in particular for not taking better precautions.

I thought about the Infield terminal being pressed into operation. My thought process extended to..... once off the airplane the only way to get pax back to the terminal is via bus. Where does GTAA get its bus drivers from. If its the same pool as snow control crew, then there is a manpower issue. Additionally any plan must also contemplate the problem that buses may not be able to traverse the ice covered apron.

From a 72 hours notice perspective, the only thing GTAA could have done was to implement an aggressive Traffic Management Program and cut flight arrivals upwards of 50%. The simple plan is to implement a TMP on 24 hours notice of Environment Canada Flash Freeze warning being issued. This would have still impacted the travelers, but they would have atleast been held at their point of origin.

[inchman]

My personal peeve is that there is no apparent foreplanning by the GTAA. Every improvement seems to be because of some incident and lack of services.

For the first few years of the CDF something different bad happened on the first big snowstorm of the year. One year they ran out of deice fluid. The next year the single pump on the mixer failed... they still can't get bags in T1 to the carousels in a reasonable time (not sure if this is airline or airport's problem). The air conditioners on the bridges don't provide enough cooling on any sunny day over 20 degrees. The high speed sidewalks were unserviceable for 2 years and now only operate at slightly higher speed than the low speed walkways. Signage and departure board locations in the airport are horrible and getting worse in T1 international... they are not on any rational walking route. There's hardly any food or beverage and no stores outside the arrivals halls. Pedestrian flow following customs has two pinch points. Exit points from the secure side of the airport require 24 hour security guards instead of using the motion detection system used across Canada or the double-door system used in Europe.

GTAA employees all had new jackets and shirts within days when the new airport logo (an almost direct copy of Munich's old logo) was inaugurated, but apparently, outside workers (I'm guessing the bridge millwrights) did not have appropriate cold weather attire. There is no reason to think, given the history of lack of foresight from the GTAA that they outfitted their staff with cold weather clothing. But I'm sure they'll all have Helly Hansen stuff in time for spring. I personally don't think the shutdown was an airline thing as much as it was a GTAA thing. All of the Air Canada employees that I saw on Monday night were appropriately dressed. Probably not toasty with a 25 kt wind in -20 weather, but safe.

But none of the airlines wants to say that it's the GTAA's fault alone because there will be some repercussion down the line.

[runaway]

I think that the ground stop was a group decision.

The GTAA made the decision to close the airport. It is their decision to make.

Thanks for the info!

[Fido]

From my reading on many platforms and media and trying to filter out the non informed BS that permeates the opinions expressed, it seems to me that the route cause was:

There was standing water and wet pavement Sunday afternoon at YYZ which then froze as the temperature dropped very quickly. Thus there was ice everywhere around the terminal which made it near impossible to push aircraft off bridges, get baggage carts and loaders near aircraft safely, or even allow aircraft to approach stop lines at the gates for fear of not being able to stop.

[boestar]

Anyone in the Toronto area during this storm should realize the sheer amount of Ice followed by severe cold that rendered deicing the ramp near impossible. On top of that high winds and poor visibility. A perfect storm.

[cavok]

Anyone in the Toronto area during this storm should realize the sheer amount of Ice followed by severe cold that rendered deicing the ramp near impossible. On top of that high winds and poor visibility. A perfect storm.

Exactly. As with most cases when normal operations descend in to chaos, there is not a single factor that caused the issue.(It's not all the GTAA's fault).

I suspect the reason the GTAA, Air Canada and WestJet aren't playing the blame game is because they all had issues that day. One of the things I've seen mentioned only briefly is how many ground handling employees actually made it in to work that day.

Icy ramp or not, if you lack a good portion of ground handling employees, the aircraft aren't moving. Combined with challenging winter conditions (runways take priority over aprons) and things grind to a halt.

From the GTAA's perspective, consider how quickly this escalated with planes landing and no gates. It doesn't take much imagination to appreciate the concern the GTAA had for how these aircraft would be deplaned throughout the morning without gates. Give those aircraft a few hours on the ground and you start to have medical emergencies requiring a tremendous amount of already limited resources. It was purely to mitigate those risks that a ground stop was issued.

As for the Infield terminal, the last time it saw use was quite a long time ago. I don't believe the building is in any condition to be brought online without considerable time and cost. The thing is mothballed to reduce expenses (and thus reduce the costs passed on to airlines in the form of rates and charges). Also, most of the bus fleet required to support that level of operation is almost certainly not available. My guess is that they're down to 3-4 busses in total, just enough to facilitate an aircraft evacuation on the airfield. (The busses are operated by the airfield maintenance workers, who also had their hands pretty full).

At the exective level, is suspect that the GTAA, Air Canada and WestJet have a pretty good working relationship these days. Blaming each other will serve no purpose. This is an opportunity for everyone to reflect on the lessons leaned and amend procedures to reduce the risk of another occurrence.

[Specs]

If the government avert a strike at an airline by claiming that those employees were essential to the economy, then how can they let Pearson get away with not being better prepared?

[Super 80]

Last I heard the infield terminal was basically setup as a filming location. Although it was garrisoned by some security operations during the G8 conference.

[blues deville]

I recall deadheading to Europe in 2003 with a bus ride to the infield terminal. I believe it was during the construction of the old/new T1 and loss of gates.

[Super 80]

Obviously I meant it's current use. There used to be a "Filming at YYZ" information site but I can't find it.

[deicer]

If the government avert a strike at an airline by claiming that those employees were essential to the economy, then how can they let Pearson get away with not being better prepared?

Like Canada Post, the government sees AC employees as being essential enough to legislate back to work, but disposable enough to rape through imposed contracts.

[inchman]

From my reading on many platforms and media and trying to filter out the non informed BS that permeates the opinions expressed, it seems to me that the route cause was:

There was standing water and wet pavement Sunday afternoon at YYZ which then froze as the temperature dropped very quickly. Thus there was ice everywhere around the terminal which made it near impossible to push aircraft off bridges, get baggage carts and loaders near aircraft safely, or even allow aircraft to approach stop lines at the gates for fear of not being able to stop.

Anyone in the Toronto area during this storm should realize the sheer amount of Ice followed by severe cold that rendered deicing the ramp near impossible. On top of that high winds and poor visibility. A perfect storm.

The temperature at 11Z was -24 and the temp when the airport was reopened for full operations at 15Z was -21. Vis was 15sm in both METARS. Wind was identical at 25 kts. The ramp condition was unchanged. The working conditions for station attendants was virtually the same at both times. If it was impossible to operate at 11Z, it was impossible to operate at 15Z, but magically the situation changed.

The closure was clearly a case of overreaction. The fact that the airport reopened safely in the exact same weather and ramp conditions proves that. If they had allowed departures during the closure to get aircraft off the ramp, I wouldn't have a case, but when the airport opened for operations, there were as many aircraft on gates as there were at 11Z, only worse: now some were without crews because they were going to bust their duty days.

[boestar]

Inchman:

Apparently you dont live or work in Toronto. I don't care what the Metar said or the TAF for that matter. The issue is you could NOT get to work. When the decision to close the airfield was made the roads in the area were almost impassable due to visibility measured in inches. I had to come to a complete HALT when driving because the furthest thing I could see was my windshield wipers. At times I may have had visibilities up to 2 or 300 feet at best. I am guessing that would have made almost everybody late. So who parks the planes, loads the planes, pushes the planes, flies the planes, clears the runways, checks in the passengers etc etc etc. At some point the morning arrivals would overrun the departures and you have gridlock. Hence the ground stop order. The condition of the ramp was improved before the stop was lifted but not much. The weather was still very cold with high wind chill factors. This did impact equipment INCLUDING AIRCRAFT. A couple of aircraft could not start due to the cold soaked engines parked with no covers. The high winds impeded the ability to even install covers.

If you were anywhere near here from Dec 22 - Jan 7 you would have noticed things were far from rosey in YYZ.

[inchman]

I fully agree that it was an ugly day. I remember very clearly what the google traffic map looked like. As a matter of fact, I told my daughter to stay home, rather than try to get up to school in Guelph because I thought it would be less than safe for her to drive on some of the sideroads and the 401 west was a mess going by Milton.

I arrived the night before from overseas and the ramp was uuggllyy. But it was possible to both taxi to the gate and push back. People were doing it. The runways and taxiways were in pretty good shape. Even the notoriously treacherous runway exits were pretty good. And the ramp was no worse on Tuesday morning than it was on Monday night. Both were well below zero.

Keeping aircraft on the gate wouldn't help with getting the ramp cleared.... allowing them to leave would have created some space.

Yep... it woulda been slow and there still would have been cancellations, but shutting down the operation completely was not the right way to handle it, IMO. Someone mentioned medical issues.... not sure if diverting and stranding people all over the northeast would have helped those with medical issues, but I would guess not.

[Kip Powick]

Yay !!! Ice/Weather and Computer problems...Yay !!!

Memo to all GTAA staff, (Financial)

There has to be some changes/improvements?

They will cost X amount (projected by magic 8 Ball)

We will have to increase our fees X x4..... (just in case we go over our planned budget...you know...just in case)

Memo to all staff with firm direction to follow...

GTAA HQ

[conehead]

January 11, 2014 9:08 AM - General - Airlines/Aviation Save Software Outages Causing Slowdowns at Toronto PearsonTORONTO, Jan. 11, 2014 /CNW/ - Operations are being affected at Toronto Pearson due to software outages with the systems that airlines use to check in passengers. As the check in counters are not functioning properly, airline staff are checking passengers in manually which is causing slowdowns.IT providers are on scene working to rectify the situation as quickly as possible, but it is expected that check in will continue to be slow throughout the morning.We apologize for the inconvenience that this is causing to passengers as they check in at the airport this morning.Passengers are being asked to use web check in before they come to the airport to help alleviate some congestion at the airline check in counters. Self-service kiosks are working and passengers can use those for the check in process as well.Passengers should also leave themselves extra time for the check in process this morning due to the outage.The airport authority and the airlines have additional staff on the floor helping to manage the lines and answer questions as required.SOURCE Greater Toronto Airports AuthorityFor further information:GTAA Media Office - 416-776-3709

News radio reports big delays at Pearson this morning due I.T. issues.

[Mizar]

From my reading on many platforms and media and trying to filter out the non informed BS that permeates the opinions expressed, it seems to me that the route cause was:

There was standing water and wet pavement Sunday afternoon at YYZ which then froze as the temperature dropped very quickly. Thus there was ice everywhere around the terminal which made it near impossible to push aircraft off bridges, get baggage carts and loaders near aircraft safely, or even allow aircraft to approach stop lines at the gates for fear of not being able to stop.

We pushed back twice at about 430 and 530 in the morning on a fully loaded triple 7. There were no issues with pushback difficulty that I could see as a passenger. Taxiways were covered in snow. But there may have been ice underneath. Taxi speed was reasonable. I think there is BS around in this issue for sure.

I was also driving around the area approaching midnight. The roads were fine in most areas. One area where people watch the landings near the cargo area had blowing snow and reduced visibility. No problem to get to work from the areas I was in.

People do stupid things sometimes. I saw a group of three pushing a baby carriage and luggage approaching airport road from terminal 3 trying to push the carriage through deep snow, so I turned around and went back to make sure there was no problem. It was about 3-4 minutes later that I arrived nearby. By the time I got there, they had crossed the road and the lady was waving her arms for someone to stop. After waiting at a traffic light, I went and picked her up. The other guy remained with the luggage The husband had left with the baby to the hotel they were trying to get to across the street. She was frantic about her baby. Frostbite appeared to be starting no her ears and hands which I was warming up for her. She had no gloves or hat

As we drove the short distance to the hotel which her husband had already reached with the baby, she mentioned twice how someone had told her that the getting to the hotel was no problem and just across the street. Why would anyone risk their baby and proceed without proper winter gear in such a situation. All to likely save taxi fare. Dress properly for the conditions and act responsibly whether for work or family matters.

Nice to be a good samaritan though.

[boestar]

Keep in mind Mizar that many people who work at the airport, myself included live outside the GTA. I am fairly close (32km) but many come from much further away. Weather north west of YYZ was far worse. Trust me.

Good job on the good samaratin thing. Most would have kept going. with the wind chill what it was she is lucky if she didnt have frost bite already.

[AAS]

It doesn't help that half a dozen gates get closed for snow dump/melting operations.