New Rumour...

[conehead]

Enough of all these threads about politics... I was speaking with some Maintainers at Sunwing the other day, there is lots of talk about them acquiring some 787's... Comments?

[SkyBlazer]

That would be a kick to the teeth of the BOD at WJ who continue to stall on the order of widebodies.

Soon they will be left in the dust with both AC and perhaps now even SW having them.

If its true good for sunwing.

[SkyBlazer]

Same reason IBM was making tons of cash .....

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Personally I think WJ made a wrong turn at Encore. They should have gone long haul then, and signed a CPA with a regional operator for feed. Goodness knows CMA, porter, Pacific Coastal, could have been in the running. Now a rumour like this comes out (granted, it is before 10am on a weekday...) putting yet another obstacle in the competitive landscape. This is probably a window of opportunity for Sunwing, given WJ being tied up with Encore. If not now, it will only get harder in the future for them.

[inchman]

Same reason IBM was making tons of cash .....

... and RIM.

[SkyBlazer]

My point being Malcolm ... is unless they change ( and granted they have quite a bit) they will be left behind.

If this rumour is indeed true - it places WJ vacations at a disadvantage. I cant help but agree with Rozar.

SB

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Not to pile on WJ here but one shortcoming of the extreme focus on "culture", (which was definitely a large part of their first 15 years of success differentiating them in the market to consumers and also as a motivating factor for employees) is the tendency to view growth by acquisition in a negative light. porter (notwithstanding the other business issues) for example, seemed to be looked at as a "well, let's not acquire them because...how would we integrate them with our culture? We need to build the culture from the ground up..." etc.

Likewise with Sunwing. If this rumour is true, why blow each others' brains out racing for organic market share? Why not just buy Sunwing? No doubt there would be the question of culture integration. WJ seems so focussed on controlling the happiness message, that they are letting the simpler solutions pass by. Egads drop it already. There is no culture anymore, you are a profit-seeking entity and money is and will always be the only thing that matters.

I probably mentioned that I just transferred to AC rouge, another ersatz "culture" project. My initial impression? It's an airline. The colours are different, the uniforms are different, but ultimately we're taking people from a to b. What happens in between is to a certain extent irrelevant. If Sunwing buys 787's WJ should look to acquire them. Otherwise what's the point of having a billion in cash? Might as well just give it back to the shareholders if you're not going to use it.

[SkyBlazer]

The culture is being put to the test by the top who remain hell bent on focusing on the bottom line and forgetting how the place was built.

Im not going to argue with you the merits of necessary change within a industry... wether it be airlines or whatever..

What I am saying is that If WJ allows competitors like rouge or SW to continue to expand and capture market share on longer routes then there can be no complaining later when their niche market is all they have, and then eventually face more competition when the likes of airlines from the south start cherry picking the profits away.

Maybe I am biased - i admit id like to see wide bodies at WJ - but as a owner Im also not pleased with the product regardless of share price.

[Kasey]

And........ It's just a matter of time before the troops rally as a united group, look what's happening "over there"!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1029/483268-ryanair-pilots/

[Jumpy]

A comparison between the culture at Ryanair and WJ isn't even in the same league as far as the way they treat their employees. I find it ironic that we as owners complain about the rate of change but then say "but we need wide bodies." Holiday travel just doesn't make much sense for buying the 787 unless you can change the business to long haul leisure. That remains to be seen whether Sunwing can do this and to take the corporate risk at $250 million per tail.

[YYCMatt]

So, everyone who's salivating at the thoughts of widebodies at WS, where would they fly them to? Alberta to Hawaii for 4 months? Europe? Vegas? S America?

I don't agree with getting widebodies just for the sake of getting them.

[melcrothers]

Firstly, on Sunwing, I can't see Colin Hunter agreeing to complicate his operation with another aircraft type. Currently there are rumours SW is going to buy the Canadian operation of I travel2000..... again why? He has his own tour operation and discount arm that does retail direct. If SW want widebody capacity, I would see him wet leasing what he thinks he needs, with trained pilots with experience on the aircraft type and built in cost per hour from his contract operator, but with SW's own cabin staff. That's more Colin's style.

For WJ, regardless of Encore, with the startup of Hawaii a number of years ago and the known range limitations on the current fleet - WJ has to address the issue head on. Sure a stop gap with Thomas Cook's B757's meets the Western Canada shortfall in range, but at the end of the day WJ have enough marketshare to successfully sustain 4 - 5 medium size widebodies with a solid 9 hour range. They just have to quit out guessing the nay sayers.

I believe they can and will be successful if they just increased the hormone levels around the board room.

IMHO

[dagger]

First thing WS has to do is fill a couple of senior management positions. Then it can move on to other things.

Also, as we have seen for decades, it's a no brainer to acquire widebody lift when you decide to get into that market. You can deal with a lessor, or sublease another airline's surplus aircraft. Charter operators have sprung up like weeds. They die off each winter, and new ones grow the next spring. Whatever SW intends, it doesn't preclude future action by WS.

And frankly, if predictions of lower fuel prices become reality, a well maintained 767-300 is a better proposition for SW in the short to medium term. If SW is stepping up its international game, it would likely be another pain point for Transat, rather than a miss for Westjet.

[blues deville]

Doesn't Sunwing currently trade aircraft with Thomson in the UK who are now operating 787s. Perhaps these new Boeing's need a place to go for part of the winter season.

[chockalicious]

I know from the outside it looks like WestJet culture is simply "hey be happy" and that is that but there is far more to the corp culture than that. It goes to productivity, focus on costs AND creating a happy work place.

All of this being said there are some people who say that the culture is or has eroded, personally I think it has evolved somewhat as the workforce has matured.

[melcrothers]

Blues --- thats a logical step for SW. That how C3000 got life and Colin was at Owners Abroad ( now Signature or SW Holidays ) when C2000 was brought to life.

[blues deville]

I think so too.

From a discussion I had with a manager at Thomson a few years ago, the plan was/is to operate two types: 737NGs & 787s. Pilots can flip flop between each one as needed. So any carrier associated with them should be following the same plan.

Makes sense for Sunwing and from my experience maintenance staff always have the best information about what's going on.

[conehead]

... from my experience maintenance staff always have the best information about what's going on.

We always joked that the catering staff and the groomers had the best intel.

[Thebean]

Much of this thread is music to my ears and indicates how little has changed over the years.

WestJet is doing things in precisely the right order. Sure, there's a problem with Alberta to Hawaii, but that has been dealt with in a cost effective manner for the time being.

If you are going to profitably operate sched wide bodies on a year round basis from Canada, you'll need a rock solid domestic feed network, something neither Sunwing or Transat have.

There's no getting around this if you want to do it right. There will be no shortage of people who do it wrong. I doubt WJ spends much time worrying whether or not others jump the gun on this. It's sort of a "hare vs tortoise" thing.

I wouldn't expect to see any wide body deliveries to WJ until the Encore fleet is approaching at least 40 tails.

Dagger is correct in saying that there are going to be some very intriguing opportunities with all the high quality 767-300's that are going to become available in the latter half of the decade.

[J.O.]

After 15 years in the charter biz, I heard more than enough rumours to last me a lifetime (or two). If I had a dollar for every untrue rumour about fleet changes that I heard from a maintenance guy (or gal), I could keep my car in gas for a year. If I had a dollar for every rumour that I heard from a pilot, I could buy a new version of the same car. And if I had a dollar for every new destination rumour I heard from FAs, I could buy a ticket to each one of those destinations!

Believe it when it's parked on the ramp and you're strapped in, fueled up and have a clearance to destination.

[deicer]

It's the airline biz!

Don't you know by now that it's SOP that if you don't hear a rumour by noon, start one!

[J.O.]

Then you wait a week to see if you still recognize it when it comes back around!

[DEFCON]

Rozar

You've identified yourself here as an AC A320 FO. Just curious; what were the where's and why's in support of your decision to go to Rouge?

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Short answer- I'm upgrading to captain on the 319.

Longer answer- with the mainline 320 fleet shrinking and much of the productive flying being transferred to rouge, it appears that even though I would be technically progressing up the seniority list, over time my flying and schedule would get worse if I stayed put. As well, the mainline monthly min hours guarantee is quite a bit lower than rouge, so with hours waning, pay would also decrease. My other choice was EMJ CA, but that's shrinking too, or B767FO, same.

So, am I happy that rouge pays 30% less than mainline for the same job? No, but we play the hand we're dealt. I get a raise from my present job, work fewer days, and have a chance at summer/Xmas/other holidays which at mainline are taken by the top 10% only.

I plan to stay for 3 yrs. If it's terrible or if some other development compels it, I'll come back sooner. If it's great I'll stay longer.

Cheers

[blues deville]

Since the initial rumour is now boring us, I've heard relief pilots on the 767 at AC have gotten left seat at Rouge. Any truth to that?