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Which is probably why most managers are viewed as being slightly stupid, narcissistic boot lickers. Why become a "manager" if you can make more and work less as a line employee? Honest question. If you are smart, manager is a job you avoid because it is (again, as you claim) not worth it.

People aren't always driven by money to make their decisions. Everyone's personal situation will influence how much money is a factor, but I was fortunate enough to be in a situation where money was a consideration (still gotta pay the bills) but wasn't going to be my primary decision maker, knowing that I had 40 more years of work life ahead of me.

When I left the ramp at AC and stepped into leadership and eventually management roles, it had everything to do with personal development and challenging myself and learning more about the business.

Years later when I left AC to join WS, it had everything to do with finding a corporate culture that I connected with and being happy as a human being. Making that change required me to take a 40% pay cut, and it was the best decision I have made in my career.

Making career decisions not based on money, has oddly enough put me into a career position today where I make significantly more than what I would be making had I stayed at AC as a manager or ramp agent (with the added bonus of not having to go through the 3-4 layoffs, re-orgs, etc... that my former co-workers lived through).

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Air Canada pilots none too trusting of management, union after labour negotiations

Tue July 23, 2013 - Financial Post
Scott Deveau

The conclusion of a bitter round of labour negotiations last year at Air Canada has left its pilots with little trust for the airline’s management or their union leaders.

Those are some of the conclusions contained in an internal survey conducted by the Air Canada Pilots Association of its members obtained by the Financial Post.

The survey was conducted in May to gauge the pilots’ feelings about the previous negotiations and to plot a path forward ahead of the next round of bargaining. But moving forward may prove to be a bit of a challenge, with 86% of the pilots surveyed saying they had little or no trust for Air Canada’s corporate leaders, and 77% saying the same about the current ACPA leaders.

“This lack of trust among pilots is a even more of a challenge for the company than it is for the association,” a breakdown of the survey presented to ACPA members says.

“Even among those pilots who want a more co-operative relationship with the company, this will be difficult to achieve if pilots have little trust in those sitting on either side of the table,” it adds.

The sentiments of the pilots echo the results of another internal survey conducted by the Air Canada of CUPE, which represents the airline’s flight attendants, said Tria Donaldson, a spokesperson for the union.

Air Canada declined to comment on the survey results.

But Capt. Craig Blandford, who was elected as ACPA’s president Jan. 1, 2013, said he has been heartened by the 58% of the pilots who said they supported a co-operative relationship with the company going forward.

“I want to try and improve the relationship with the company such that it is more constructive and positive,” he said.

“There’s no way we are going to be successful as a pilots association or as an airline unless the airline is profitable, and we have to realize that.”

But Capt. Blandford acknowledged that there is a sect of the union unable to move past the concessions given during the airline’s bankruptcy restructuring in 2004, and convincing them to move forward would be a challenge.

"Pilots appear to feel disconnected from the Association (and their employer). Restoring that sense of connection, belonging or engagement will be a major challenge."

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Let me phrase it terms that you can understand. If the pay was similar would you go fly a 182 or does it appeal to you to fly a widebody all over the world.

My pick today would favour the '182'.

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Interesting discussion about Management, the value of a MBA is about the square root of zero. 25 years ago a MBA was a valuable Post Grad Degree. Today you just purchase them under the Executive MBA programs, no longer requiring an Undergrad Degree.

What is laughable (and truly sad) about the "Clipboard Managers," is they run around and do nothing. If they ever actually fixed something, they would be out of a job.

Mission Statement; "Look Busy."

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Hi, seeker (& Johnny) - If what you're saying about Dork is true, it's not very clear at all in his posts. Sacred cows? Rattling chains? Nobody's back is covered by the sort of bluster and ignorance on pension security, for instance (naive or willful? who knows?), that is a central theme of many of his comments. And the tongue-in-cheek about the kowtowing he is supposedly given in China doesn't come through very well, either.

The Web is a distorting medium, we all know that. I'm sure that Dork is great fun at beer-call, but to a lot of folks here he's coming off as a bit of a git ...

Cheers. IFG :b:

I did some line indoc with Dork years ago and had known him informally for years before that. I can also vouch that he's a good guy, although, yes- he has clearly enjoyed stirring the pot in this thread. :P

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MCDU, I enjoyed flying with you as well, you are truely a gentleman,

This thread has gone in several directions for sure. The only stiring that should be going on is in the minds of those who blindly follow the mantra that they need to work for nothing while their is no money for their pension plan. These comments don't single out any one company but the pattern is the same.

I work for a man who makes $40000 USD a year and owns most of the company stock. He is a hard working humble man who even loans out his car for anyone on company business. He pays his pilots extremely well. I will work my butt off for that man. A far cry from the robber barron CEO types who demand employees work for nothing while they do....well.

The union leaders...a very misleading term..is just the same old group now jockying for position to pad the resume and act like pidgeons that you would have to throw a rock at to get them off the ground. They mirror their management cohorts and have the same goals...good schedule and position oneself for something better later at the expense of the unwashed.The true uniuon leaders are gone and retired. There are some great managers..most resign in disgust after a couple of years. To suggest we need a better working relationship with the company is nice...pay your employees and they will work for you. Would a battered wife be served better if she was just nicer to her abusive husband...I don't think so. This is my observation only, not bitter just one cultivated after carefdul observation.

LWC"s are a disgraceful blight on the aviation profession, it's time for that reality to be admitted to. A true LCC pays pilots well over $300 000 before tax and is rolling in cash profits where employees can make a difference. You get rewarded with plenty of cash, time off and fun...not some constant pension threat in a cash siphoning machine. I would rather work for Fonzi than Ponzi.

The new contracts are about to surface overseas, choose carefully and bring an A Game. I cannot believe how much pent up demand there is in the world for pilots. If you have the skills they will pay for them.

Dork

Pilot to Tailgunner.....Caution....Imminent Tailpipe Fire...

Edited by Dork
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Where does one find a website for rouge flights and fares? I keep getting directed to the main AC site.

I would use the Air Canada Vacations site. Although we all talk of 'rouge' as though it is a regular airline on we can book passage like any other, it is in many ways more the captive charter carrier of Air Canada Vacations, much like Air Transat is the captive carrier of the Transat/Nolitours/TMR group. In particular, the printable ACV schedule notes which flights are rouge and which are regular Air Canada.

How things will be tomorrow I do not know. There are still many unanswered questions about this new adventure.

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Regarding management and culture, I found this interesting. Seems applicable to many entrenched cultures, not just at the management level either.

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Hang a banana on a string inside the cage and place a set of stairs under the banana. Before long a monkey will go to the stairs and climb toward the banana.

As soon as he touches the stairs, you spray all of the other monkeys with cold water.

After a while another monkey will make an attempt. Do the same thing, spray all the other monkeys with cold water. Keep repeating this. Pretty soon when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it.

Now, put the cold water away. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one.

The new monkey will see the banana and attempt to climb the stairs. To his shock, all of the other monkeys will beat the crap out of him. After another attempt and attack, he will know that if he tries to climb the stairs he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys, replacing it with a new one. The newcomer will again go to the stairs and will be attacked. The previous newcomer will take part in the punishment...... with enthusiasm, because he is now part of the "team".

Then, replace a third original monkey with a new one, followed by the fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he will be attacked.

Now, the monkeys that are beating him up have no idea why they are not permitted to climb the stairs. Neither do they know why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.

Finally, having replaced all of the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys will have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, not one of the monkeys will try to climb the stairway for the banana.

Why, you ask? Because in their minds...that is the way it has always been!

This, my friends, is how an elected government operates... and this is why, from time to time - ALL of the monkeys need to be REPLACED AT THE SAME TIME.

Can the same be said for some corporate cultures? I think so. :scratchchin:

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I would use the Air Canada Vacations site. Although we all talk of 'rouge' as though it is a regular airline on we can book passage like any other, it is in many ways more the captive charter carrier of Air Canada Vacations, much like Air Transat is the captive carrier of the Transat/Nolitours/TMR group. In particular, the printable ACV schedule notes which flights are rouge and which are regular Air Canada.

How things will be tomorrow I do not know. There are still many unanswered questions about this new adventure.

Interesting.

Note that Scoot has its own website and you have to look long and hard to find any reference to Singapore Airlines on it.

http://www.flyscoot.com/index.php/en/

Same with jetStar, though the link to Qantas is slightly more visible.

http://www.jetstar.com/us/en/home

Rouge hasn't gone that direction. They seem to very much want to be known as an Air Canada product.

This is a big fundamental, philosophic difference, imo.

:Clever:

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Rouge hasn't gone that direction. They seem to very much want to be known as an Air Canada product.

This is a big fundamental, philosophic difference, imo.

Rouge offers connectivity to the AC network. I'm not sure if Jetstar and Scoot are kept separate from the mainline carriers in that regard.

AC has also subbed mainline equipment and crews to cover several Rouge irrops. Not sure if Jetstar or Scoot are backed up by their mainline airlines in that area either. It has made Rouge more reliable than it would have been had it been left to swim on its own, but I suspect that it has also cost AC a fortune.

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The cost to AC is probably no different than when the mainline aircraft operated the same flights.

The connectivity with the 'feeder' network is something that was learned during the ZIP experiment.

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The cost to AC is probably no different than when the mainline aircraft operated the same flights.

I think the cost will have been quite a bit higher.

Because of Rouge being crewed separately, in some cases 2 crews have been paid to do the work of one. Not just salary, but hotel rooms, per diem and other costs. In the case of at least one mainline rescue flight for the VCE operation, the return leg took a 12 hour delay with all of the associated costs purely and simply because the Rouge crew that was already in position in VCE could not operate the mainline aircraft that had flown the YYZ-VCE sector and had arrived VCE on time. The rescue VCE-YYZ flight was thus delayed while the mainline crew had a 12-hour layover with the aircraft. Costly stuff.

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I think the cost will have been quite a bit higher.

Because of Rouge being crewed separately, in some cases 2 crews have been paid to do the work of one. Not just salary, but hotel rooms, per diem and other costs. In the case of at least one mainline rescue flight for the VCE operation, the return leg took a 12 hour delay with all of the associated costs purely and simply because the Rouge crew that was already in position in VCE could not operate the mainline aircraft that had flown the YYZ-VCE sector and had arrived VCE on time. The rescue VCE-YYZ flight was thus delayed while the mainline crew had a 12-hour layover with the aircraft. Costly stuff.

Another 12 hours in Venice? There are worse places to be stuck unless of course it was the airport lobby. However, this AC/Rouge arrangement with flight crews may not be the greatest idea they've had lately.

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Rouge offers connectivity to the AC network. I'm not sure if Jetstar and Scoot are kept separate from the mainline carriers in that regard.

AC has also subbed mainline equipment and crews to cover several Rouge irrops. Not sure if Jetstar or Scoot are backed up by their mainline airlines in that area either. It has made Rouge more reliable than it would have been had it been left to swim on its own, but I suspect that it has also cost AC a fortune.

The status of the Rouge/AC relationship is that Rouge is a wholly-owned subsidiary company with a separate operating certificate and provides lift to AC via a capacity purchase agreement.

AC's obsession with getting out the labour costs have it saddled with an operation where, as described above, AC pilots that flew a mainline fin just months ago cannot jump in and operate that same fin because they are now 'Rouge' pilots and the fin is still AC. Perhaps this will all make sense when the 767 fleet is no longer in operation at mainline, but right now it makes ZERO sense. Ditto for the A319 although if AC decides that the narrowbody fleet replacement is the NEO then the same operational inefficiency will continue to exist.

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Guest rozar s'macco

Everyone with a brain saw this coming. Spun as normal growing pains, of course. But the reality is we've got a self-inflicted loss of economies of scale. Never forget that they could have changed the seating config and painted the aircraft without the rest of the nonsense.

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Everyone with a brain saw this coming. Spun as normal growing pains, of course. But the reality is we've got a self-inflicted loss of economies of scale. Never forget that they could have changed the seating config and painted the aircraft without the rest of the nonsense.

Well, I guess it's always possible that the savings on pilot and cabin crew salaries and work rules will offset the costs of the separate real estate, separate and additional management, occasional double crewing, unnecessary delays and customer rebooking complete with hotels rooms both at origin and at connecting points, but I rather doubt it.

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the Air Canada web site says:

but it appears you need to find the Rouge destinations chart and then book the city pairs shown.

No not rocket science, however someone with basic computer science skills needs to set it up for public use. For example, if you want to look at flights to Venice, the AC site gives you connections through Frankfurt, on AC mainline. Where are the rouge flights?

We pack our own groceries, tag our own suitcases, select our own seats......now we have to work around an airline's website to find what we want?

That's not what I want to do.

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No not rocket science, however someone with basic computer science skills needs to set it up for public use. For example, if you want to look at flights to Venice, the AC site gives you connections through Frankfurt, on AC mainline. Where are the rouge flights?.

I think the Rouge service and mainline flights are shown on days where Rouge operates. If you don't see a Rouge offering there's either no Rouge flight that day or no seats available if there is one. The advantage to not putting Rouge on a separate site is that you can book Rouge one way and mainline the other, and open jaw to/from airports that Rouge doesn't serve.

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