Rouge News

[Seeker]

AMEs truly are under-appreciated and under-paid for their skills and I always treat them with the respect due their knowledge and responsibility, managers and MBAs - not so much.

[Boney]

There was this chap named Joe. His job, for the last 15+ years, was to bring the honey wagon up the airplane and clean out the lav's.

Everyday, Blue Juice always spills on him. Joe is always complaining. Not a happy camper. One day, his buddies commented, "Joe, you are so unhappy. Maybe you should think about doing something else?"

Joe replied..."What, and give up Aviation!"

Hmmmmm.

[chockalicious]

AMEs truly are under-appreciated and under-paid for their skills and I always treat them with the respect due their knowledge and responsibility, managers and MBAs - not so much.

Yeah, why respect a manager who has worked their way up in the trenches. Why respect an MBA who is bettering themselves through education in the hopes of career success.

I don't want to turn this in to a pilots vs everyone thread but that a pilot could be so dismissive of the business side of an airline is lame.

[Mitch Cronin]

Yeah, why respect a manager who has worked their way up in the trenches. Why respect an MBA who is bettering themselves through education in the hopes of career success.

I don't want to turn this in to a pilots vs everyone thread but that a pilot could be so dismissive of the business side of an airline is lame.

Are you serious? It's only "lame" if you close your eyes to the last 20 years of denied value and changing fortunes in this industry. Otherwise, Seeker's right on the mark.

[Seeker]

Yeah, why respect a manager who has worked their way up in the trenches. Why respect an MBA who is bettering themselves through education in the hopes of career success.

I don't want to turn this in to a pilots vs everyone thread but that a pilot could be so dismissive of the business side of an airline is lame.

Now don't be like that. I didn't say I was dismissive of the business side of the operation. The operation requires managers and there are many managers who do get my respect however the 22 year old "manager" in a shiny new vest who's standing around on the bridge with a clipboard monitoring whether I start the APU at 6 minutes before sched instead of 5 (like I'm supposed to) does not automatically get my respect.

Oh yeah, BTW, career success for an MBA is often at odds with success of the airline.

[Seeker]

Malcolm, tell me again what your backgound is in aviation, I can't remember.

[chockalicious]

Are you serious? It's only "lame" if you close your eyes to the last 20 years of denied value and changing fortunes in this industry. Otherwise, Seeker's right on the mark.

Dead Serious Mitch. The pilots and AMEcare the only ones worthy of respect is not only lame, it shows a glaring lack of understanding of basic business.

[chockalicious]

Now don't be like that. I didn't say I was dismissive of the business side of the operation. The operation requires managers and there are many managers who do get my respect however the 22 year old "manager" in a shiny new vest who's standing around on the bridge with a clipboard monitoring whether I start the APU at 6 minutes before sched instead of 5 (like I'm supposed to) does not automatically get my respect.

Oh yeah, BTW, career success for an MBA is often at odds with success of the airline.

Don't be like what? You are the one who said managers and MBAs are not people you respect.

Lots of hard working people, even some with MBA who are as passionate and committed to their airline as any pilot.

[Seeker]

Dead Serious Mitch. The pilots and AMEcare the only ones worthy of respect is not only lame, it shows a glaring lack of understanding of basic business.

Now don't be putting words in my mouth. I said AMEs were under-appreciated and under-paid. This statement says nothing about anyone else. If you can agree with that we can move on to discuss whether managers, MBAs, secretaries and cleaning staff are also under-appreciated and about why and how much.

[Seeker]

Don't be like what? You are the one who said managers and MBAs are not people you respect.

Lots of hard working people, even some with MBA who are as passionate and committed to their airline as any pilot.

Well, as a general feeling, it's true, I am not spring loaded to respect managers and MBAs. Why is that? Because, in my experience many of these people "manage" to their own benefit. Kinda like Milton "managing" himself to a few hundred million, kinda like CR managing himself to a 5 million bonus - I should respect this? I could spend the rest of the day typing stories about managers who twisted the operation to meet their own hand-written performance criteria and then "managed" to get their bonus. Sure there are many good-hearted, hard-working managers, some who I know personally. I know the operation needs managers but I do not automatically bestow respect on just any manager.

[Seeker]

Why not? He / She is only following instructions the same as you do but without any latitude to refuse/

Simply following instructions is not enough to gain respect is it?

[Seeker]

short term memory. Union member (including being a union rep) and then many good years in hands on management.....at one time responsible for over 200 staff and a multi million dollar budget My CV is too long to post on this forum but it does not include being a MBA or a pilot but I have loaded aircraft and yours is?????????

Ahhh, I'm a pilot - can't you tell? The reason I ask is just so I can place your comments into a framework of some sort. If you were a good manager, you would probably have had the respect of your staff and mine too if I happened to have had some sort of interaction with you. Anyway, I took the bait and got caught in a rear-guard action when that was not my intent.

[Dork]

Managers tell you what to do; leaders inspire you to do it. We need less of the former and more of the latter in this business. Feeding the troops first gets my respect. Raiding the pantry does not.

Here, Here...right on.

Dork

[mo32a]

Sure there are many good-hearted, hard-working managers, some who I know personally. I know the operation needs managers but I do not automatically bestow respect on just any manager.

And you say managers don't respect what you do, I think I see the disconnect here.

[CanadaEH]

Well, as a general feeling, it's true, I am not spring loaded to respect managers and MBAs. Why is that? Because, in my experience many of these people "manage" to their own benefit. Kinda like Milton "managing" himself to a few hundred million, kinda like CR managing himself to a 5 million bonus - I should respect this? I could spend the rest of the day typing stories about managers who twisted the operation to meet their own hand-written performance criteria and then "managed" to get their bonus. Sure there are many good-hearted, hard-working managers, some who I know personally. I know the operation needs managers but I do not automatically bestow respect on just any manager.

If you took your experience at AC out of the equation would you feel the same way?

[Guest]

Well, as a general feeling, it's true, I am not spring loaded to respect managers and MBAs. Why is that? Because, in my experience many of these people "manage" to their own benefit. Kinda like Milton "managing" himself to a few hundred million, kinda like CR managing himself to a 5 million bonus - I should respect this? I could spend the rest of the day typing stories about managers who twisted the operation to meet their own hand-written performance criteria and then "managed" to get their bonus. Sure there are many good-hearted, hard-working managers, some who I know personally. I know the operation needs managers but I do not automatically bestow respect on just any manager.

I could very well write this same post with the terms "pilot" and "manager" interchanged. There are self serving executives/managers as well as self serving pilots, ramp agents, ame's, dispatchers, res agents, etc... Then there is the other 90% of employees in this business who function with pride and professionalism focused on running a successful operation.

We could all write a book about the few a--holes in this business, but we barely give enough time or thought to the thousands of great people who show up every day to make it all work as good as it does.

[chockalicious]

@ Rich, you probably want to differentiate between managers and Executives, not too many managers at either airline pulling those kinds of bonuses.

That being said what you posted is the reality of Exec pay in North America.

[Guest]

You're right, most employees in ALL employee groups are generally hard-working folks who will go 'above and beyond' when necessary. But, other than the managers, when was the last time any of those folks got a $5M bonus? How about a $1M bonus? A $100K bonus? A $10K bonus? It's all fine and good to say a CEO (or any other senior manager) deserves a performance bonus, but what other employee can get a bonus equal to FIVE times their base salary? What other employee can interpret results so as to achieve a bonus threshold? (Think Nortel) What other employee group is able to protect their pensions? Everyone contributes to the bottom line, but few of the hard-working employees get more than a pat on the back for going the extra mile. It's tough to swallow when the boss is pocketing a multi-million dollar bonus whilst congratulating you for your extraordinary contribution but apologizing that there isn't enough in the kitty to give you anything more than a thank you note and a handshake.

Show me one manager who received $5 mil bonus. People bunch managers with executives all the time and they're not the same. In my time at AC, your average manager got paid about $60k per year, working at least one of their days off per week and put in about 2500 hours a year with no such thing as extra pay or overtime. On an hourly basis, the ramp leads made more money.

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Which is probably why most managers are viewed as being slightly stupid, narcissistic boot lickers. Why become a "manager" if you can make more and work less as a line employee? Honest question. If you are smart, manager is a job you avoid because it is (again, as you claim) not worth it.

[chockalicious]

Which is probably why most managers are viewed as being slightly stupid, narcissistic boot lickers. Why become a "manager" if you can make more and work less as a line employee? Honest question. If you are smart, manager is a job you avoid because it is (again, as you claim) not worth it.

Well there is a broad brush, this board would have a collective stroke if someone said something like about pilots, most on here are too smart to make such an idiotic claim.

Reasons people want to go into management other than what you posted in your asinine screed:

Opportunity to make a difference in how things are run.

Opportunity to move up the food chain and advance a career.

Opportunity to make more money.

Opportunity to take on a new challenge.

Opportunity to learn and lead.

Because a person has a great work ethic and wants to work.

I can probably dig up a few more reasons but am not sure anything would change your view.

[conehead]

You may be surprised at how many low level managers got bonuses in excess of 10k this year... I know quite a few.

[Guest rozar s'macco]

chock- all of those reasons save for the Opportunity To Make A Difference (where'd you get that, out of a pamphlet?) are money related. Somebody claimed that managers made LESS money than workers. An notion that if true, would only attract idiots to the position, or if false, it makes the original statement, well, false.

Remember don't work hard, work smart (people to death).

[boestar]

I am a manager and routinely make less than the senior guys on the floor. This is due to overtime that they get and i don't. The one thing you are overlooking is that it isn't all about Money. I chose a management position because I was tired of shift work, tired of missing Christmas, tired of missing kids events and weekend getaways. Sure I make less money than I could on the floor if I really wanted to work most of my life but I don't.

I Enjoyed my position as a Team leader and I really enjoy the learning opportunities I have been given in my current position. While still with the airline I am no longer directly involved in Maintenance while still having an influence to make things better for the engineers on the floor.

I don't think I am an "idiot" for choosing lifestyle over money.

[chockalicious]

chock- all of those reasons save for the Opportunity To Make A Difference (where'd you get that, out of a pamphlet?) are money related. Somebody claimed that managers made LESS money than workers. An notion that if true, would only attract idiots to the position, or if false, it makes the original statement, well, false.

Remember don't work hard, work smart (people to death).

No not out of a pamphlet. I count myself fortunate to work with people who really do want to make a difference.

While the other reasons I mentioned may have increased pay as a benefit it is also a matter of wanting to be engaged and having more fun at work.

Let me phrase it terms that you can understand. If the pay was similar would you go fly a 182 or does it appeal to you to fly a widebody all over the world. Some people like the challenge of leadership, some don't.

[J.O.]

This seems appropriate.