Rouge News

[conehead]

Dork; how do they treat the Maintenance Folk over there?

[FA@AC]

Dork; how do they treat the Maintenance Folk over there?

I believe they aren't to walk through a door before Dork does.

[mo32a]

Mitch, I can't believe you're supporting this clown. He's the one who would be telling you to fix "his" airplane" so he could gather the ardour of the admiring populous. To whit, he is an anachronistic moron who is living in the past. All hail Dork. Not.

[DEFCON]

Something got lost in translation. I wasn't trolling; I was making an enquiry as to how AC, a corporation, is supposed to compete when there is such an obvious disparity in remuneration between respective employees? And...when an AC pilot retires and takes up the lesser paying position, which he certainly knows is contrary to the best interests of his former colleagues; is that not a continuation of the theme of 'eating ones young'?

I don't think Dork is being arrogant; he's just stating what once was the obvious; piloting was an honourable profession through which an individual so licenced could expect to earn a decent buck. Today we / he needs to go live in places like China to make ones time as productive as possible; for as long as the good times exist there. Who remembers the once great paying and hugely respectful of pilots, Cathay Pacific?

[Seeker]

Mitch, I can't believe you're supporting this clown. He's the one who would be telling you to fix "his" airplane" so he could gather the ardour of the admiring populous. To whit, he is an anachronistic moron who is living in the past. All hail Dork. Not.

I happen to know Dork personally and I'd sit beside him on any airplane going anywhere. You won't find a better guy to have your back, whatever the mission. I think he's just having some fun here on the forum, slaying sacred cows and rattling chains.

[Johnny]

I believe they aren't to walk through a door before Dork does.

Completely incorrect, likely to be holding the door open.

Dork says, what 99% of AC Pilot think, he had the guts to pull the trigger. 38 years is the total time in this (screwed up) Industry.

Funny how 'non-Pilots' forget, we spend years that can turn to decades, trying to make it to the Big Airlines.

[frankly]

So we're counting air cadet time then?

[airt]

So we're counting air cadet time then?

Why not?

It's all part of a long and difficult road attaining the experience and training that leads you to the "promised land".

[Johnny]

If that is when the individual started Flying (Gliding) damn rights. Go ask the passengers that survived the Gimli Glider, they survived thanks to the Skill of those two Pilots.

[frankly]

Well, if you leave just shy of your 50th birthday so you can take your pension money out, and you have 38 years in the industry, then you were 12 when you started. Bad math or BS?

I'm just sayin.

[Thebean]

How's the air quality over there?

I know a number of people who gave up fat salaries, and I mean considerably more than Dork could even dream about, in China because the pollution was causing them serious health issues.

To each his own, I guess.

[thor]

I enjoy living in Canada, with the taxes in Alberta, fresh air, good friends, family, stable political environment, (more or less?) coming home after a pairing to my house with my car, seeing my wife and my kid, western world environment, all kinds of good safe food, because of the food inspection protocol, good pay-check from a healthy company, common language, ... I think others can add more...

[dagger]

Well, two things:

1. Dork rails about his security of the AC pension but in the last few days I've seen both empirical and anecdotal evidence that the rising price of government bonds since April (about 65 basis points for the 5 yr treasury last I looked) had helped reduce pension solvency deficits across the board. That include's AC's solvency deficit. And if the trend continues with a strengthening US economy, he can look forward to collecting every cent without losing any sleep over it. That's good news for all.

2. Back on topic: Rouge operated its first week with a 95% load factor and all flights were on time except one which was delayed by fog. I'm not forecasting any trends, or drawing any conclusions from that, just repeating what was reported publicly.

[Thebean]

Well, two things:

1. Dork rails about his security of the AC pension but in the last few days I've seen both empirical and anecdotal evidence that the rising price of government bonds had helped reduce pension solvency deficits across the board. That include's AC's solvency deficit. And if the trend continues with a strengthening US economy, he can look forward to collecting every cent without losing any sleep over it. That's good news for all.

2. Back on topic: Rouge operated its first week with a 95% load factor and all flights were on time except one which was delayed by fog. I'm not forecasting any trends, or drawing any conclusions from that, just repeating what was reported publicly.

I wouldn't have expected to see anything else. From an ops pespective, other than new f/a's, not much changed from June 30th to July 1st.

I can't ever recall an "airline within an airline" launch that wasn't deemed "an overwhelming success" in its first few months, but then again, I can't recall a LCC "airline within an airline" experiment in North America that lasted more than a couple of years either.

I'll be interested to see the quantitative changes as things move forward and see what they do to the bottom line. They'll be easy to spot in the published metrics. Things like casm, yield and rasm.

It'll also be interesting to see how far and deep the yield impact will be as across the Atlantic starting next May as result of Aer Lingus's move. The big players don't really need to respond until late 2013 / early 2014 but they will respond. They have no choice but to do so.

Interesting times.

[IFG]

I happen to know Dork personally and I'd sit beside him on any airplane going anywhere. You won't find a better guy to have your back, whatever the mission. I think he's just having some fun here on the forum, slaying sacred cows and rattling chains.

Hi, seeker (& Johnny) - If what you're saying about Dork is true, it's not very clear at all in his posts. Sacred cows? Rattling chains? Nobody's back is covered by the sort of bluster and ignorance on pension security, for instance (naive or willful? who knows?), that is a central theme of many of his comments. And the tongue-in-cheek about the kowtowing he is supposedly given in China doesn't come through very well, either.

The Web is a distorting medium, we all know that. I'm sure that Dork is great fun at beer-call, but to a lot of folks here he's coming off as a bit of a git ...

Cheers. IFG

[Dork]

There is so much to say but only so much ability to use these fat fingers on an iPhone to convey ones thoughts. But here goes. Forgive spelling, grammatical errors and run on sentences.

38 years Frankly of what ...Well chasing a dream and enjoying it but needing to be paid now to finish.

A summary just for you though..Air Cadets/Flying Club/ Two Air Forces/Regional Airline/ Mainline/Overseas Expat.

ACat Check Pilot and Flight Leader Both Air Forces/ Depot Test Pilot/ Airshow Pilot/Regional Airline Check Pilot, Every crew I ever led was number one and produced Officers and Enlisted Man of the year.Great guys.

More to type but who cares..translation not qualified to comment on a aviation forum or to be paid to fly. It wouldn't be the first time or last time former aviation time didn't count.. But it keeps me and my pax alive.

Side note... I have always had the best mechanics in everyone of my flying experiences and have hoisted many a pop with them. My hats off to them... I often called the Mr Goodwrench and the laughed when I asked them to. He k the carburetor on number two jet engine.

Rouge/Jetsart and any other facsimile type airline created or to be created simply transfers flying and career prospects of the main airline. Have lots of pals suffering the Jetstar debacle and the skewering of Qantas and their careers.The outsourcing through Rouge and other affiliates reduced my present and future earning potential to such an extent I had to pull chocks and exit.

One remark here suggests the airline paid for the type rating.. trust me the starvation wages given to me and my family paid that price. The poor sods coming in now get the same and worse treatment. It disgusts me. How are those exec bonuses doing at the various airlines these days?

Now I am paid properly and back in control of my own destiny on merit again and not a reassigned seniority number. That subject can fill a trash can on it's own .. It cost me alot of past and future earning potential. No further comment on that.

Pensions... If they are so healthy I will look forward to the news that they are fully funded and no pension funding relief will be required by any corporation. That pension plans will all now magically be DB with all employees welcomed into the plan. As for being wet behind the ears on pensions... please consult with your own pension advisors and lawyers..make up your own mind. I made up mine after looking at the numbers and again wanted to reduce the risk. P.S. it takes 9 to 10 months to do a 90 day process....it's the new pension math. I wonder what use would someone have for that money for 9 months....

So seniority loss, wage reduction, outsourcing, pension risk, and pilots always willing to line up and fly for free have set me free.

China. Is great and a lot of fun. They pay on time and investing in bonds there is a good option. The currency is doing pretty well too.

A nice change of pace, work hard and great vacations. Lots to see and do.

One major difference... I respect the CEO... He built the company and is a very nice man. I will always go the extra mile for him. He owns the company.

Those who've had a pop with me know I have always taken care of those around me at home or at work. Salut and Bonne Chance.

Dork is my handle... I chose it on purpose i can handle it....call me what you will.

Dork

[blues deville]

I enjoy living in Canada, with the taxes in Alberta, fresh air, good friends, family, stable political environment, (more or less?) coming home after a pairing to my house with my car, seeing my wife and my kid, western world environment, all kinds of good safe food, because of the food inspection protocol, good pay-check from a healthy company, common language, ... I think others can add more...

Sounds like you've got it all.

However, if the critical "good pay cheque from a healthy company" falls apart, your options as an experienced pilot in this country can become limited depending on your age and responsibilities. I don't think I know of one pilot who made working "off shore" their first choice. The most common reason I hear from other expat pilots is: 1) former airline ceased operation, and more recently 2) former airline employee pension issues. To cash out and leave a major airline (and seniority #) is a huge deal and not something everyone can do for a variety of reasons.

[frankly]

There is so much to say but only so much ability to use these fat fingers on an iPhone to convey ones thoughts. But here goes. Forgive spelling, grammatical errors and run on sentences.

38 years Frankly of what ...Well chasing a dream and enjoying it but needing to be paid now to finish.

A summary just for you though..Air Cadets/Flying Club/ Two Air Forces/Regional Airline/ Mainline/Overseas Expat.

ACat Check Pilot and Flight Leader Both Air Forces/ Depot Test Pilot/ Airshow Pilot/Regional Airline Check Pilot, Every crew I ever led was number one and produced Officers and Enlisted Man of the year.Great guys.

More to type but who cares..translation not qualified to comment on a aviation forum or to be paid to fly. It wouldn't be the first time or last time former aviation time didn't count.. But it keeps me and my pax alive.

Side note... I have always had the best mechanics in everyone of my flying experiences and have hoisted many a pop with them. My hats off to them... I often called the Mr Goodwrench and the laughed when I asked them to. He k the carburetor on number two jet engine.

Rouge/Jetsart and any other facsimile type airline created or to be created simply transfers flying and career prospects of the main airline. Have lots of pals suffering the Jetstar debacle and the skewering of Qantas and their careers.The outsourcing through Rouge and other affiliates reduced my present and future earning potential to such an extent I had to pull chocks and exit.

One remark here suggests the airline paid for the type rating.. trust me the starvation wages given to me and my family paid that price. The poor sods coming in now get the same and worse treatment. It disgusts me. How are those exec bonuses doing at the various airlines these days?

Now I am paid properly and back in control of my own destiny on merit again and not a reassigned seniority number. That subject can fill a trash can on it's own .. It cost me alot of past and future earning potential. No further comment on that.

Pensions... If they are so healthy I will look forward to the news that they are fully funded and no pension funding relief will be required by any corporation. That pension plans will all now magically be DB with all employees welcomed into the plan. As for being wet behind the ears on pensions... please consult with your own pension advisors and lawyers..make up your own mind. I made up mine after looking at the numbers and again wanted to reduce the risk. P.S. it takes 9 to 10 months to do a 90 day process....it's the new pension math. I wonder what use would someone have for that money for 9 months....

So seniority loss, wage reduction, outsourcing, pension risk, and pilots always willing to line up and fly for free have set me free.

China. Is great and a lot of fun. They pay on time and investing in bonds there is a good option. The currency is doing pretty well too.

A nice change of pace, work hard and great vacations. Lots to see and do.

One major difference... I respect the CEO... He built the company and is a very nice man. I will always go the extra mile for him. He owns the company.

Those who've had a pop with me know I have always taken care of those around me at home or at work. Salut and Bonne Chance.

Dork is my handle... I chose it on purpose i can handle it....call me what you will.

Dork

I started building model airplanes when I was 8, but that has nothing to do with the pay scale. I only know of a couple of guys who quit Air Canada to go to China, and they only had about 16 years of service. Not enough seniority to hold a widebody left seat, and still mad about the Keller award.

So now you're making what you think you should be making, and if you need to be the first one on and off the crew bus to be happy, then you're in the right place. But it's getting a little old hearing you rant about all the chumps who still like working here. There's a reason guys aren't quitting here in droves to move to China, or elsewhere. You just haven't figured it out yet.

[Dork]

I remember when I went to a picnic with my father and came home with mother.

Maybe my first day flying.

Frankly...you have it all figured out. Enjoy yourself.

Dork

[blues deville]

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-will-third-time-be-a-charm-for-air-canadas-airline-in-airline-rouge-387760/?cmpid=NLC%7CFGFG%7CFGABN-2013-1807-GLOB%7Cnews&sfid=70120000000taAi

[DEFCON]

The race to the bottom continues! I think Dork figured it out and left AC for all the right reasons. Seeing the news release related post above makes it pretty clear; it won't be long before the MBAs have Jazz, Sky, Rouge and any other airline employee groups they create competing against each other and whatever may be left of so-called mainline AC.

[Johnny]

Rouge is going to succeed, there is no doubt. Thanks to the heavy hand of our elected Government, they have the Pilots right where they want them.

[Johnny]

Is Rouge truly offering lower fares than Mainline? We've all witnessed WestJet's "Low Fare" motto quietly slip into the past.

[DEFCON]

Malcolm

Come out of your pro management shell and smell the air. The MBA's have been the smart, clever and cunning ones, the pilots...not so.

[Guest]

Funny how 'non-Pilots' forget, we spend years that can turn to decades, trying to make it to the Big Airlines.

I'm not so sure the "pilots" always understand or give credit to the many others in the industry who spend countless years working midnights, weekends, overtime whenever posisble as a ramp rat (on a wage freeeze... thanks IAMAW) to get a promotion, only to move 4 times in 6 years (all while leaving your family and loved ones behind) in order to work 16 hour days / 7 days a week (no such thing as rest periods) to get to the desired career position.

We all pay dues in on form or another to get to where we want to be. It's not like Gregg Saretsky was a highschool flunkie who just randomly threw his name in to be CEO at WestJet and they picked him like it was a lottery.