Porter To Get C Series

[Maverick]

That's great news for Bombardier! Now, will Porter be allowed to once again monopolize YTZ with jet service like they did with the Q400 or will the TPA allow competitors in on an equal basis?

I'm liking the thought of a WJ -600 operating YYJ-YTZ!

I kind of think though that the Toronto island residents are going to have something to say about this...

[airt]

"Conditional purchase order" says it all (or not)

Any idea's or better yet , information , on what those conditions are?

[chockalicious]

Who was the lawyer for the NIMBY group that used to post here but would not answer any questions? When will he be back?

[Guest flywest]

WOW.....and I thought all the good weed was on the west coast.

Up until now I would have completely agreed with Bean's assessment.

However; after watching the news conference and witnessing the um...."challenges" contained within the proposed operation, I have to question if this is just a face-saving way of committing the equivalent of corporate seppuku.

If it should turn out that he expansion plans for the airport are not approved, and the doors were to subsequently close, it would then be very easy to cry "government interference"......and not have to own up to reality.

There are a lot of very good people who work on the line for Porter. I'm disappointed to see that their leaders don't have a more credible plan for their future.

[MD2]

Indeed this is good for the city, for consumers, for Bombardier and for Canada.

It is time to update the old agreement with the new advanced technology of today:

Behold the whisper jet and the new Porter plans:

https://www.porterplans.com/New-Planes

[airt]

Indeed this is good for the city, for consumers, for Bombardier and for Canada.

It is time to update the old agreement with the new advanced technology of today:

Behold the whisper jet and the new Porter plans:

https://www.porterplans.com/New-Planes

Gotta admit...pushing all the right buttons

MD2

Since you are in the know , what are the conditions attached to the first 12 aircraft?

[rudder]

Know what today's announcement cost Porter? Zero. Delivery positions in 2016? May as well have announced 2020 plans for 787's to Asia and requested a 6000' extension to the runway at YTZ............

Putting 3 years between the announcement and fruition gives them lots of opportunity to bail on the conditional delivery slots or perhaps re-sell them if in fact the C-series becomes a sought after airframe.

The Feds will cave on the jet ban at YTZ. TPA is already in RD's pocket. So the only seeming obstacle to fantasy becoming reality is the City of Toronto. It already sounds like the imbecile running the city is on side, but he does not generally have the support of council. He probably won't even get approval for a waterfront casino.

I cannot wait to watch this all play out in the Toronto media for the next 3 years

The Tri-partite Agreement for the operation of the Billy Bishop Airport

In June 1983, the three owners of the island airport lands, namely the former City of Toronto, The Toronto Harbour Commissioners (now the Toronto Port Authority), and Transport Canada entered into a 50-year Tripartite Agreement governing BBTCA operations. This Agreement remains in effect today and sets out the terms for the operation of the BBTCA. The agreement specifically prohibits additional runways or extensions to runways, a bridge or vehicular tunnel to the Island, turboprop or piston aircraft generating excessive noise, and jet operations (with the exception of medical evacuations, other emergency medical uses as required, and the Canadian National Exhibition air show). The agreement also contains terms addressing the provision of easements across airport lands and the decommissioning of the Terminal Building (also known as the Administration Building).

[airt]

"Conditional purchase order" says it all (or not)

Any idea's or better yet , information , on what those conditions are?

Found the answer to my question. Seemed obvious enough but I had wondered whether there had been financing conditions , which makes one wonder where the money is coming from. Word was , some of the original investors wanted out , not deeper in...

"The privately held airline said it will need revisions to rules at its hub, the downtown Toronto Island airport, that prohibit the operation of scheduled commercial jets and the extension of runways.

Porter's CSeries purchase agreement is conditional on those prohibitions being dropped."

[Specs]

Gotta admit my life is a lot easier with YTZ as busy as it is and I'm a big supporter but I find i difficult to see where they're going to accommodate any more passengers or aircraft.

Deicing one aircraft at the gate seems to stop movement on the ramp and delays everybody. The terminal is certainly too small, as is the ferry/walkway terminal and the road in to access them. There's going to be as much development needed shore side as there would be on the island. If the Feds don't own that land or Deluce doesn't already have rights to it then I'd have to guess the proposal is dead in the water. Maybe Mr Ford can help?

[blues deville]

So much negativity towards Porter. A new Canadian built aircraft to be showcased from downtown Toronto's City Center Airport. To me it all sounds very exciting and good for the city of Toronto.

[Thebean]

Indeed this is good for the city, for consumers, for Bombardier and for Canada.

It is time to update the old agreement with the new advanced technology of today:

Behold the whisper jet and the new Porter plans:

https://www.porterplans.com/New-Planes

If it's such a positive move for Toronto, surely it would be an even better move if the airport was opened up to all?

Enjoy the media hype, but take some good advice and try not to believe too much of your own BS.

This is a "Galileo Seven" move and everyone that matters knows it.

[rudder]

So much negativity towards Porter. A new Canadian built aircraft to be showcased from downtown Toronto's City Center Airport. To me it all sounds very exciting and good for the city of Toronto.

You may not understand the full history associated with TCCA. There is much more to this initiative than overcoming some minor technical issues. And the City of Toronto is currently in the process of spending hundreds of millions via MetroLinx building a direct rail line from downtown to CYYZ. Expanding operations at YTZ has NEVER been on the City of Toronto's agenda. But it would appear that some of Porter's investors have the ear of the oaf that occupies the seat of power. That seemingly has empowered them to believe that they can undo restrictions that are political in nature, not technical.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/upexpress/upexpress.aspx

[J.O.]

By the time this gets to a vote on Toronto city council, the Ford brothers and their entourage of luddites will be a distant memory, replaced by folks who actually care about all of Toronto, not just the 905 part that elected him. IMHO of course.

[inchman]

By the time this gets to a vote on Toronto city council, the Ford brothers and their entourage of luddites will be a distant memory, replaced by folks who actually care about all of Toronto, not just the 905 part that elected him. IMHO of course.

They may be replaced, but Toronto, and most of the GTA communities, have never missed a good opportunity to elect or re-elect a luddite.

[MD2]

So much negativity towards Porter. A new Canadian built aircraft to be showcased from downtown Toronto's City Center Airport. To me it all sounds very exciting and good for the city of Toronto.

Indeed, you would think that Canadians associated with aviation would be delighted with creating new opportunities and showcasing ground-breaking new technology and the city of Toronto! And it appears that some are missing the point which is to update the agreement to recognize the new technology available now in an aircraft that is very quite. This is in fact a very technical issue and not so much political.

And Bean, you are forgetting that of course the airport has always kept its doors open to all airlines and encouraged new business. In fact one airline declined the slots which it was awarded. As per your previous assertion, Westjet was never interested in this airport and I believe you said Westjet didn't give it even a minute's thought or something to that effect. If new slots should become available, which you're right they should, and Westjet has a change of heart and sees the potential of this airport, then it too can apply and be awarded its fair share.

[rudder]

Toronto Port Authority issues statement on Porter CSeries purchase

Wednesday April 10th 2013 - Toronto Port Authority Press Release

The Toronto Port Authority has issued the following statement on the purchase agreement for 30 Bombardier CS 100 aircraft announced by Porter Airlines on April 10.

The Toronto Port Authority (TPA) is aware of the announcement made earlier today by Porter Airlines. As an independent operation, it is up to Porter to pursue its own business plan for the benefit of its customers, shareholders and employees. The TPA takes no position on Porter's business aspirations.

For the past 30 years, the TPA has operated the Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport based upon the terms of the 1983 Tripartite Agreement, and will continue to do so. The TPA will not consider any change of use to the airport until a determination is first made by the elected representatives on Toronto City Council regarding Porter's proposed changes to the 1983 Tripartite Agreement.

http://skiesmag.com/news/articles/18650-toronto-port-authority-issues-statement-on-porter-cseries-pu.html

[Fido]

From the Sun News article

Those who have seen the new Bombardier jet say it is "very quiet"

Since it has not flown yet, I guess it would be very quiet.

[Mitch Cronin]

Since it has not flown yet, I guess it would be very quiet.

LOL....

Is it worth mentioning that there's a whole generation of folks familiar with the sounds of JT8's, JT3's, and such who'd swear a CFM is very quiet? So what does that mean?

But your point definitely comes first!

[Maverick]

My problem with this whole announcement is that's it's starting to smell a lot like Jetsgo. Expand, expand, expand, pump, pump, pump. Fail. The ripple effect is felt by all the other carriers when irrational pricing comes into play.

Porter is somewhat different because of the exclusivity of YTZ so their effect on others is relatively minor.

I can't see any scenario in this day and age that the residents of Toronto island will ever allow jets in there. No matter how quiet. The cart is so far ahead of the horse in this deal that no one even knows the horse was there!

[blues deville]

You may not understand the full history associated with TCCA. There is much more to this initiative than overcoming some minor technical issues. And the City of Toronto is currently in the process of spending hundreds of millions via MetroLinx building a direct rail line from downtown to CYYZ. Expanding operations at YTZ has NEVER been on the City of Toronto's agenda. But it would appear that some of Porter's investors have the ear of the oaf that occupies the seat of power. That seemingly has empowered them to believe that they can undo restrictions that are political in nature, not technical.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/upexpress/upexpress.aspx

As one of the first Dash 8 endorsed pilots in Canada I am fully aware of the issues with TCCA or the Island Airport as we used to call it. During my 4 years with City Express I never saw one protester regarding the noise generated by the original -100 series. I do know that the airport had a long history before commuter airlines ever existed. The Norwegian Air Force trained their pilots at the Island when the Nazi's invaded their homeland. The most expensive highrise in the city back then might have been the Royal York hotel. I don't think anyone protested these servicemen and the reason for them being in our city. I don't think the TCCA or Island Airport has never been part of the city of Toronto's future plans but thankfully we have Canadian's in the airline business who have believed there was a need for it.

Don't get me started with the Metrolinx. The GTAA has shut down the airport link train for 6 months during construction because one track will cross over the other. Good planning and about 30 years behind the rest of the world when it comes to connecting cities with airports. The only reason the city is finally building a rail link is because of the 2015 Pan-Am games. It's all part of that deal. They're spending money only because they have to.

If you don't like or don't agree with expansion at the TCCA that's fine. Don't use Porter or the airport. City Express helped showcase the Dash 8 when it first came out in the mid 1980s. I met several Vps of US and European airlines who wanted to see first hand what the airplane was all about. DeHavilland used to send me letters (not emails) thanking me for talking to these potential customers.

Porter now has a new opportunity to expand their airline with a new Canadian built aircraft. With so much business leaving Canada for the US and other places, its good to see our aerospace industry coming out with another great aircraft. My airline has 30 on order and is the launch customer.

What was you're feeling about the Avro Arrow?

[rudder]

From the Sun News article

Since it has not flown yet, I guess it would be very quiet.

The commercial jet prohibition at YTZ has little to do with noise and is entirely due to the ongoing controversy over the expansion of commercial air operations using that particular facility. A C185 taking off from the adjacent water makes more noise than a jet or a Q400, but the argument that a CS100 makes less noise than a Q400 will not carry the day in the core debate about increasing operations at YTZ.

The Metrolinx plan for direct rail service from downtown to YYZ renders lack of reasonable public transit accessibility to a Toronto area airport as a moot point as well. It will be operational in 2014.

[Airband]

By the time this gets to a vote on Toronto city council, the Ford brothers and their entourage of luddites will be a distant memory, replaced by folks who actually care about all of Toronto, not just the 905 part that elected him. IMHO of course.

Curious as to how any 905 residents might have had an impact on a Toronto municipal election.

[rudder]

As one of the first Dash 8 endorsed pilots in Canada I am fully aware of the issues with TCCA or the Island Airport as we used to call it. During my 4 years with City Express I never saw one protester regarding the noise generated by the original -100 series. I do know that the airport had a long history before commuter airlines ever existed. The Norwegian Air Force trained their pilots at the Island when the Nazi's invaded their homeland. The most expensive highrise in the city back then might have been the Royal York hotel. I don't think anyone protested these servicemen and the reason for them being in our city. I don't think the TCCA or Island Airport has never been part of the city of Toronto's future plans but thankfully we have Canadian's in the airline business who have believed there was a need for it.

Don't get me started with the Metrolinx. The GTAA has shut down the airport link train for 6 months during construction because one track will cross over the other. Good planning and about 30 years behind the rest of the world when it comes to connecting cities with airports. The only reason the city is finally building a rail link is because of the 2015 Pan-Am games. It's all part of that deal. They're spending money only because they have to.

If you don't like or don't agree with expansion at the TCCA that's fine. Don't use Porter or the airport. City Express helped showcase the Dash 8 when it first came out in the mid 1980s. I met several Vps of US and European airlines who wanted to see first hand what the airplane was all about. DeHavilland used to send me letters (not emails) thanking me for talking to these potential customers.

Porter now has a new opportunity to expand their airline with a new Canadian built aircraft. With so much business leaving Canada for the US and other places, its good to see our aerospace industry coming out with another great aircraft. My airline has 30 on order and is the launch customer.

What was you're feeling about the Avro Arrow?

Well, with your history then you and I both know that this debate is not about 'noise'.

The order is great news for a Canadian aircraft manufacturer. Making that order conditional on lifting of restrictions that go to the heart of the airport usage debate may be a fatal flaw.

I expected the Porter/BBD announcement. I did not expect them to be operated out of YTZ.

Here is a local Toronto newspaper article that clearly describes the battle lines and the players involved. There are no politics messier than municipal politics.

http://www.thestar.com/business/2013/04/10/porter_airlines_plans_to_fly_bombardier_jet_out_of_toronto_island_airport.html

[cata]

Lol, Robert on Dulce on BNN Business Day asked about the financing for the expansion and he says they have none, Bean is right, looks like Porter investors are getting desperate with time running out before Encore takes them out. Getting the jets on the island and extending the runway is impossible, people will never allow that to happen.

[blues deville]

Well, with your history then you and I both know that this debate is not about 'noise'.

The order is great news for a Canadian aircraft manufacturer. Making that order conditional on lifting of restrictions that go to the heart of the airport usage debate may be a fatal flaw.

I expected the Porter/BBD announcement. I did not expect them to be operated out of YTZ.

http://www.thestar.com/business/2013/04/10/porter_airlines_plans_to_fly_bombardier_jet_out_of_toronto_island_airport.html

You're certainly entitled to that opinion. Let's wait and see.