Ac's E-175S To Sky Regional


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Some YYZ-BOS-YYZ frequencies were recently changed to be operated by Sky Regional as of next week. Does this represent the transfer of the first E-175?

All other E-175 flying that I can find so far is still scheduled to be operated by AC. Any word on the timing of transfer of the remaining fleet?

Edit: It looks as if all E-175 flying reverts to AC in April. Are the Sky Regional BOS operations for March a training exercise or some such thing?

Edited by FA@AC
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Edit: It looks as if all E-175 flying reverts to AC in April. Are the Sky Regional BOS operations for March a training exercise or some such thing?

They need more than a training exercise. Plenty of issues at SR.

Suffice it to say that things are a tad behind schedule.

They couldn't even operate their fleet of Q400's fully last summer. How are they going to operate 15 Embraers by the end of June (in addition to their Q's)?

This has not been fully thought through on either end.

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They need more than a training exercise. Plenty of issues at SR.

Suffice it to say that things are a tad behind schedule.

They couldn't even operate their fleet of Q400's fully last summer. How are they going to operate 15 Embraers by the end of June (in addition to their Q's)?

This has not been fully thought through on either end.

This initiative was created by CR and has the full support of AC corporate. It will happen irrespective of whether it goes smoothly or not. SKY is not a real company. It does not possess the infrastructure nor resources to pull this off without the guidance and access to services provided by or through AC. Plus, AC assumes all of the commercial risk including startup and windup costs.

The desire to create a meaningful CPA competitor to Jazz is perhaps clouding the vision of the decision makers. What is the logic in having a single small operator meet the regulatory requirements for two fleet types where one is a fleet of just 5 aircraft? The term of the Q400 CPA was just 5 years and is now half over. The EMB 175 CPA is just 3 years.

I am certain that there is an agenda to eventually either replace what Jazz does on behalf of AC or at least reduce the cost of those services. However, this does not seem the best way to go about it. At a minimum the Q400's should have been pushed over to Jazz on competitive terms so that SKY could focus exclusively on the EMB program startup. And even then they would have had their hands full. Any plan to accept in to service more than 2 aircraft per month is not realistic.

I wonder in watching this all unfold whether AC may have some interest in acquiring Porter at a favourable price using SKY as the vehicle so as to keep the transaction shielded from the mainline unions. This would give AC direct control via SKY of 31 Q400 and 15 EMB within the CPA framework with the ability to expand the EMB fleet at SKY by up to an additional 29 aircraft. It would also give AC a monopoly at CYTZ. It would allow AC to reduce the surplus Q400 capacity at CYTZ and redeploy against WJ Encore in a preemptive fashion. One cannot help but think that here must be a grander strategy than what is currently visible because what is visible makes very little sense.

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Guest rozar s'macco

No need to shield any prop flying from ACPA. More than a few times I was told "nobody wants to fly those". Err, right.

rudder's idea is actually kind of interesting. I find it alternately humorous, embarrassing, and frustrating that AC management was so clueless on the nuts and bolts of so many of the "NEEDS" during negots. Like, we want a separate OC for rouge. Oh, that means we have to start from scratch??! Whaaaa? And this SR mess. What you can't transfer 3 fins a month to a startup??!

AC had made a few good strategic moves lately but operationally, it is hilarious how clueless the top cheeses still are about so much.

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This initiative was created by CR and has the full support of AC corporate. It will happen irrespective of whether it goes smoothly or not. SKY is not a real company. It does not possess the infrastructure nor resources to pull this off without the guidance and access to services provided by or through AC. Plus, AC assumes all of the commercial risk including startup and windup costs.

The desire to create a meaningful CPA competitor to Jazz is perhaps clouding the vision of the decision makers. What is the logic in having a single small operator meet the regulatory requirements for two fleet types where one is a fleet of just 5 aircraft? The term of the Q400 CPA was just 5 years and is now half over. The EMB 175 CPA is just 3 years.

I am certain that there is an agenda to eventually either replace what Jazz does on behalf of AC or at least reduce the cost of those services. However, this does not seem the best way to go about it. At a minimum the Q400's should have been pushed over to Jazz on competitive terms so that SKY could focus exclusively on the EMB program startup. And even then they would have had their hands full. Any plan to accept in to service more than 2 aircraft per month is not realistic.

I wonder in watching this all unfold whether AC may have some interest in acquiring Porter at a favourable price using SKY as the vehicle so as to keep the transaction shielded from the mainline unions. This would give AC direct control via SKY of 31 Q400 and 15 EMB within the CPA framework with the ability to expand the EMB fleet at SKY by up to an additional 29 aircraft. It would also give AC a monopoly at CYTZ. It would allow AC to reduce the surplus Q400 capacity at CYTZ and redeploy against WJ Encore in a preemptive fashion. One cannot help but think that here must be a grander strategy than what is currently visible because what is visible makes very little sense.

This initiative was created by CR and has the full support of AC corporate. It will happen irrespective of whether it goes smoothly or not. SKY is not a real company. It does not possess the infrastructure nor resources to pull this off without the guidance and access to services provided by or through AC. Plus, AC assumes all of the commercial risk including startup and windup costs.

The desire to create a meaningful CPA competitor to Jazz is perhaps clouding the vision of the decision makers. What is the logic in having a single small operator meet the regulatory requirements for two fleet types where one is a fleet of just 5 aircraft? The term of the Q400 CPA was just 5 years and is now half over. The EMB 175 CPA is just 3 years.

I am certain that there is an agenda to eventually either replace what Jazz does on behalf of AC or at least reduce the cost of those services. However, this does not seem the best way to go about it. At a minimum the Q400's should have been pushed over to Jazz on competitive terms so that SKY could focus exclusively on the EMB program startup. And even then they would have had their hands full. Any plan to accept in to service more than 2 aircraft per month is not realistic.

I wonder in watching this all unfold whether AC may have some interest in acquiring Porter at a favourable price using SKY as the vehicle so as to keep the transaction shielded from the mainline unions. This would give AC direct control via SKY of 31 Q400 and 15 EMB within the CPA framework with the ability to expand the EMB fleet at SKY by up to an additional 29 aircraft. It would also give AC a monopoly at CYTZ. It would allow AC to reduce the surplus Q400 capacity at CYTZ and redeploy against WJ Encore in a preemptive fashion. One cannot help but think that here must be a grander strategy than what is currently visible because what is visible makes very little sense.

There is very little chance the Competition Bureau would allow Air Canada to dominate YTZ.

They would undoubtedly deny approval unless a very significant percentage of YTZ slots were made available to competitors, which means, in practice, Encore. Pawning slots off to affiliated carriers wouldn't cut the mustard with the folks in Hull.

In the Bureau's eyes, they'd see it as a single airline increasing dominance of, by far, Canada's largest domestic and transborder market.

They've turned a blind eye to Porter's dominance of YTZ as Porter's asm capacity is currently 1/18th of WJA's, and WJA is about 1/3 of AC's.

Porter's value, if any, is their YTZ dominance, which, by all evidence available, has never resulted in any sort of profitability.

The Catch 22 is that they can't leverage that market dominance into a shareholder windfall because the Bureau, and frankly, public uproar, would never allow AC to buy it and continue or increase that dominance. That doesn't exactly help their negotiating position when there's only one other buyer that could possibly assimilate Porter's fleet into an established network, and would have to significantly reduce YTZ capacity and give up slots to a competitor in any event in order to turn it around. So why pay a premium for a virtual monopoly that's not of any value to either of the natural potential purchasers?

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There is very little chance the Competition Bureau would allow Air Canada to dominate YTZ.

No problem. AC/Porter combined capacity at YTZ could easily be reduced by at least one third in order to increase load factor and stop the financial hemorrhaging. That would push at least 10 Q400's back in to the established AC connecting network. I highly doubt that WJ is interested in combining the risk of a startup operation and new fleet type with the black hole that swallows dollars called CYTZ. But by simply releasing slots AC will have met their obligations to permit competition.

The competition bureau cannot force a company to continue losing money. And that is exactly what Porter is doing by utilising 100% of its available slots at CYTZ. And coincidentally, AC is almost certainly losing money on its minimalist CYTZ operation as well.

This transaction could also all be done using CHR as well and might even be more beneficial for AC as CHR could afford to fund the acquisition on its own. AC might be hard pressed to justify the expenditure by itself while requesting cash flow relief from Ottawa on statutory pension contributions. With increased capacity Jazz could afford to reduce the overall margin rate charged to AC and still maintain current gross cash flow to meet its dividend objectives. But the parties have already seemed to acknowledge that increased CPA capacity at Jazz for AC is not in the cards.

In any case, at $450 million there is no deal to be had. I could see it happening at perhaps $200-$250 million for PAH or at some reduced amount for just Porter Airlines (operating certificate/aircraft/operational employees). PAH would continue to exist with its remaining YTZ based subsidiaries and would derive revenue through service agreements with AC or CHR or SKY (or perhaps even WJ Encore).

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It is complete outsourcing and a mainline pension workaround.. Simple as that.

The value will come when AC winds up or reduces drastically it mainline pension plan. That is what makes sense.

Why not have 4 to 6 different shells of pilots fighting to kill each other to fly for free.

A management paradise.

Dork

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I'm afraid you've missed my point, which is that think its hypocritical to criticize a company for outsourcing when you yourself are taking a job that has been outsourced. Pilot jobs are like everything else, supply and demand. Perhaps if there wasn't such a steady supply of expats, Chinese companies would be forced to make the effort (ie spend the money) to make sure there was more training for their own nationals instead of outsourcing, and I wonder if that's how Chinese pilots feel about it.

It wasn't intended as a dig at you, or any of the others here who were forced to go offshore due to layoffs, company closures, etc.

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And this SR mess. What you can't transfer 3 fins a month to a startup??!

You guys keep referring to the SR mess/debacle/whatever without specifics.

What is it exactly that isn't going the way AC expected it to, and what's the likely timetable for the transfer of the 175s?

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Frankly,

Good question. I have been treated with respect, have friends here and enjoy the airline very much. Everyone here is working their butts off to make it a strong company. 2nd most profitable in the PRC.

Had a blast flying today with the lads..learning things and teaching things. Good people are good people the world over.

I can appreciate your perspective. It has been over 15 years since I was treated as the solution as a pilot, with respect and something other than the scum the next agent deceided I was. Company policy to cheat a person out of every dime wears on a person and it was just not for me. Time to get the pension money out... They even screwed that up.

The hypocrites are those.... Not you by the way....Who demand pilot services be provided at Walmart wages or who shirk pension responsibility and want something for nothing. In the meantime the management compensation seems to have no limits review past plight of downtrodden former CEO's... LOL. They seem to be invested in Asia...hmmm.

The growth is so great there is demand for expats. A village here seems to have 20 million people. The Chinese are happy to have us here and seem to hire go getters and positive people with many experiences not just one stale version of aviation.

I don't need to worry about the future anymore.. My former FO's will hire me at the next gig and they will buy me a cold beer. The wheel turns as it should.

Dork

Working on the Shiny Egg...

Edited by Dork
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Guest rozar s'macco

The transfer of e175's to SR was announced as 15 aircraft between Feb-June i.e. 3 per month. It is a debacle because, as above, in April SR will still operate zero (apparently) e175's for AC.

Whats the over/under on all 15 E175's then? I say Jan 2014.

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The transfer of e175's to SR was announced as 15 aircraft between Feb-June i.e. 3 per month. It is a debacle because, as above, in April SR will still operate zero (apparently) e175's for AC.

Whats the over/under on all 15 E175's then? I say Jan 2014.

I'm aware that all 15 were supposed to leave AC for SR between Feb and June, but I never heard as specific a timetable as 3 aircraft per month. I'm thus intrigued by what is going on with SR being scheduled to operate some 175 flying next week, and I wonder if the transfer of further flying is underway but not yet showing in RES III.

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You guys keep referring to the SR mess/debacle/whatever without specifics.

What is it exactly that isn't going the way AC expected it to, and what's the likely timetable for the transfer of the 175s?

Hi FA @ AC

I don't know the month-by-month delivery schedule other than to say generally it would be averaged out. That is where the number came from. Being quite familiar with new aircraft deliveries and training/manpower spool-up at a different company with the experience and ability required- 2 airframes per month is more realistic.

~The AC/SR target of fleet transfer by July is (was always) unrealistic.

~Rumor is that while they are making an effort to get training done, Transport has yet to give final approval to their training program. If they have it now, it is fairly recent.

~It was (wrongly) assumed that the AC AQP training program was transferable with the airplanes.

~SR couldn't even staff and operate a fleet of 4 Q400's this past summer. Jazz operated it, although it spent more time grounded due to maintenance than actually flying.

I could add a few more points but there's some basics.

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SR will likely prove to be another MBA created financial horror show who's losses will require further 'from the hide' funding on the part of the current AC employee and for their part, the brightest & best will receive bonuses.

Edited by DEFCON
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SR was a question something that was a non starter with AC pilots. The then braniacs who Hijacked ACPA slipped it in as a poll asking a vague question about the concept of a few Q400's flying from the island to compete with Porter....Never to be flown from any other airport. Only a few members answered the poll and it passed by a very small margin. Next thing you know an entire airline was starting up.

The then President stood down in protest as there was an internal hijacking of the union. When TA 1 emerged with the real intent to outsource, the membership awoke, revolted...but it was too late...the virus had been inserted into the patient and the full blown destruction was set in motion for future pilot careers with proper compensation. Checkmate.

Case in point...How is the discussion going on the Q400 operation limited to fly off of the island? LOL.....So what is the thread about? Right the transfer of e175's.

The rest as they say is history.

Dork

Flying is great..pilots are just willing to undercut each other the world over for a badge, a shiny airplane or nickle...Aviation sucks..thats what I hate.

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So what is the thread about? Right the transfer of e175's.

Correct, and the rest of your rant aside, at how many airlines do mainline crews rather than crews of regional offshoots operate aircraft the size of the E-175?

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FAAC...

Look south of the border for the of returning such aircraft to mainlines as the " Regional's reach pension or pay obligation maturity". Now that all such encumerances have been removed from the mainline pilots... they too fly for free. Ahh the cycle continues.

These operations are shells requiring mainline expertise and financing to get off of the ground. Unlike coffee burns.. flying airplanes and jets is serious business which has been undermined by charleton financiers masquerading as Airline CEO's worldwide.

Having useful idiots to feed Pablum puke as news releases is just wonderful.

For a little insight on cutting corners in the NA aviation department one only need look at the unecessary crash in Buffalo. I believe that airline has closed up shop now. Where are those airplanes, the management and financiers now that the pilots who took jobs flying forr nothing are burried 20 ft down?Flying airplanes for free only brings future disaster.

Nice campaigns now to try and suck folks into the shell game through training paid and bonds posted for no pay. Come see the world nonsense.

Sounds more like the1920's slave like labor trade of the past.

Dork

Couldn't stomach the puke anymore... Nice to be paid again..feel sorry for the new lads.

Edited by Dork
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  • 2 weeks later...

The transfer of e175's to SR was announced as 15 aircraft between Feb-June i.e. 3 per month. It is a debacle because, as above, in April SR will still operate zero (apparently) e175's for AC.

Whats the over/under on all 15 E175's then? I say Jan 2014.

Agree, getting captains at those rates will be a challenge

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