FA@AC Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 It's quite strongly worded.......:http://www.marketwatch.com/story/air-canada-pilots-arbitration-settles-nothing-2012-07-30AC had this to say:http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1014129/air-canada-and-acpa-receive-arbitrator-s-final-offer-selection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47north Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Any details yet or is the document available online? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp fa Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 My understanding is that the two proposals were very similar except for the scope language.It will be interesting to see if this award is better or worse than TA1 was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 Any details yet or is the document available online?There was some stuff about it posted on our (F/A) Facebook page that had supposedly come directly from a bulletin that ACPA had distributed. I hesitate to take it as accurate, but according to the person who posted, AC has won the ability to remove large numbers of Embraers and 319/320s from its fleet without replacement. 20 of the 319/320s are supposedly to end up at the LCC, but there was no mention of what group would pilot them. No timing was mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerun Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Jazz is toast and that is not an exaggeration. Unlimited CPA's with tier 2 and 3 carriers including the ability to strike a CPA with a US regional for trans- border flying.All the EMB's can be eliminated but job protection for the pilots on that equipment. 40 Airbuses can disappear but the way I read it they have to be replaced with similar sized aircraft.Essentially TA1 with massive scope concessions, poorer expense money, large pension concessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47north Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Jazz is toast and that is not an exaggeration. Unlimited CPA's with tier 2 and 3 carriers including the ability to strike a CPA with a US regional for trans- border flying.All the EMB's can be eliminated but job protection for the pilots on that equipment. 40 Airbuses can disappear but the way I read it they have to be replaced with similar sized aircraft.Essentially TA1 with massive scope concessions, poorer expense money, large pension concessions.Can any US regionals meet these requirements?http://www.parl.gc.ca/About/Parliament/LegislativeSummaries/bills_ls.asp?Language=E&ls=c17&Parl=41&Ses=1&source=library_prb#a2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I hear lots of 767-300s - most of that fleet in fact - will be retained indefinitely, on top of all the 787s. Embraers may go, looks to me like an opening here to buy C-Series jets to replace some Embraer and Airbus.I tend to agree with homerun - this isn't great news for Jazz. I said a few years back when ACE was doing its thing that the eventual outcome would be that either AVEOS or Jazz provide services at market rates or AC would be free to go elsewhere. It's happening sooner than I thought possible. We saw last week how AC has contracted for airframe maintenance - most of it went offshore. Now Jazz is in the cross hairs. And I do think there is a big aircraft order here for Bombardier on both the CRJ and CSeries side, especially if they remarket the Embraers for AC. This also means sayonara to the last of the 50-seaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 So...... Is TA1 looking pretty good now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 So...... Is TA1 looking pretty good now?4 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 My understanding is that AC's CPA with Jazz has a few years to run yet. Am I incorrect?I'm puzzled as to how Embraer jobs are to be protected if the Embraer is to leave the fleet and not be replaced. Are they to begin leaving only after the 787s begin arriving?Any specific language on the LCC? Will ACPA represent LCC pilots or has that not been determined? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47north Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 The Jazz CPA goes until 2020.I wouldn't count Jazz out yet. Plenty of time to renegotiate and could be a way for AC to get out of expensive DHC8-100 lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehighclub Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Jazz is toast and that is not an exaggeration. Unlimited CPA's with tier 2 and 3 carriers including the ability to strike a CPA with a US regional for trans- border flying.All the EMB's can be eliminated but job protection for the pilots on that equipment. 40 Airbuses can disappear but the way I read it they have to be replaced with similar sized aircraft.Essentially TA1 with massive scope concessions, poorer expense money, large pension concessions.Before 2020, unless CCAA knocks at the door, contract obligations are cast in stone. But negociable for sure...Spitting that kind of nonsense shows how ignorant you are about the CPA agreement between the two parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 My understanding is that AC's CPA with Jazz has a few years to run yet. Am I incorrect?I'm puzzled as to how Embraer jobs are to be protected if the Embraer is to leave the fleet and not be replaced. Are they to begin leaving only after the 787s begin arriving?Any specific language on the LCC? Will ACPA represent LCC pilots or has that not been determined?As I understand it, AC recognized ACPA to represent LCC pilots in TA-1. And as I understand it, the settlement would seem to require some kind of narrow body aircraft additions to account for at least part of the Embraers. I am having a hard time absorbing the fine points, will have to read the award.From the summary I got, assuming I undertstand it correctly, one might concludeOn pensions - what the other unions negotiated.On salaries - pretty much TA-1, but with a year added.On LCC - pretty much TA-1On Scope - more latitude for the company than TA-1, with an extra job security concessions over TA-1 to protect all existing AC pilots from furlough - especially if Embraers go. Fifty seat jets are probably toast, the 75-seat restriction on the CL-900 (oops, the 705) likely is, too.I'm suddenly feeling a big Bombardier order, and probably an Airbus one for the A320-NEO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Before 2020, unless CCAA knocks at the door, contract obligations are cast in stone. But negociable for sure...Spitting that kind of nonsense shows how ignorant you are about the CPA agreement between the two parties.There will be more regional ASMs, and you won't see a single one of them. Jazz is now sitting on death row with a 2020 execution date. Yes, you'll negotiate.And I wonder what will happen if Jazz fails to provide contracted lift in the event of a dispatchers' strike in September. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 On Scope - more latitude for the company than TA-1, with an extra job security concessions over TA-1 to protect all existing AC pilots from furlough - especially if Embraers go. Fifty seat jets are probably toast, the 75-seat restriction on the CL-900 (oops, the 705) likely is, too.I'm suddenly feeling a big Bombardier order, and probably an Airbus one for the A320-NEO.It'll be interesting to read the award. I'm still fuzzy on how existing AC pilots are protected from furlough unless the Embraers are to leave the fleet only at a very slow pace, or if an offer of LCC flying would qualify as furlough protection.With a LCC of a fleet size we're hearing about I'd be surprised if AC decides to replace many of its Airbus aircraft at mainline, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if it turns out otherwise. Neither the 320-NEO nor the 737 MAX will exist for a while yet, so if one of those are to be the replacement, either AC's mainline fleet will shrink for a while (which brings me back to the question of furlough protection) or the LCC will grow only slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 It'll be interesting to read the award. I'm still fuzzy on how existing AC pilots are protected from furlough unless the Embraers are to leave the fleet only at a very slow pace, or if an offer of LCC flying would qualify as furlough protection.With a LCC of a fleet size we're hearing about I'd be surprised if AC decides to replace many of its Airbus aircraft at mainline, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if it turns out otherwise. Neither the 320-NEO nor the 737 MAX will exist for a while yet, so if one of those are to be the replacement, either AC's mainline fleet will shrink for a while (which brings me back to the question of furlough protection) or the LCC will grow only slowly.My sense is that a lot of change is going to happen in slow motion. Whole fleet types don't exit overnight and new ones take their place. It may happen faster in the regional world. The biggest upfront threat is Westjet's new regional airline, and I think AC will respond to that faster than any other issue, the LCC included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp fa Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 This is the part that explains why the change in scope will not result in job losses:"Counsel for Air Canada points out that they have removed the the promise to maintain 60 Embraer planes but have put a job guarantee in its place which protects the 643 Embraer pilots and gives them the opportunity to move up to another plane. Counsel stresses that there are thirty-seven 787’s due to arrive in 2013 and there are twenty 767’s that will stay in service, making a total of 57 wide body planes. Counsel argued that this proposal is not a trick to eliminate pilots but that the company has to avoid making a promise to keep planes in the fleet which are a drag on the company’s competitiveness." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rozar s'macco Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 WJ's regional threat? The one where they've committed to buy 40 aircraft over what, 4 years not starting until next year? The one where Air Canada already has a regional fleet of some 200 aircraft? Let me get this straight, in 5 years' time, WJ will have a regional fleet one quarter the size of Air Canada's.This feels a lot like Air Canada's handling of the Porter threat. Take a segment of the market where you have a monopoly, squander it, and then complain when a new entrant comes to town with fresh execution.Yes, more 75 seat jets is what we need....60 of them, apparently!The changes are not ALL bad, I'll grant that. My problem is that I'm full up with our management's bullshit explanations for their strategy. LCC, regional...they have and have had the ability to respond to these threats for years. YEARS. It's a cash grab, just admit it already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rozar s'macco Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Counsel argued that this proposal is not a trick to eliminate pilots but that the company has to avoid making a promise to keep planes in the fleet which are a drag on the company’s competitiveness."hey dagger, remember when the ability to properly set the "gauge" of aircraft to the demand was a "game changer". It was all about "trip cost". Oh the olden days (7 yrs ago). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
internet Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 WJ's regional threat? The one where they've committed to buy 40 aircraft over what, 4 years not starting until next year? The one where Air Canada already has a regional fleet of some 200 aircraft? Let me get this straight, in 5 years' time, WJ will have a regional fleet one quarter the size of Air Canada's.I believe you will regret not taking WJ Regional seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rozar s'macco Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 You misunderstand: I take it very seriously. However I reject the notion that Air Canada does not have in hand already the tools at its disposal to respond quickly and definitively. We have 200-odd regional aircraft, to suggest that ACPA's former scope provisions- more generous by miles than what WJ has proposed- are insufficient to mount a response is laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 You misunderstand: I take it very seriously. However I reject the notion that Air Canada does not have in hand already the tools at its disposal to respond quickly and definitively. We have 200-odd regional aircraft, to suggest that ACPA's former scope provisions- more generous by miles than what WJ has proposed- are insufficient to mount a response is laughable.1. Westjet gets to cherry pick the best routes. So the 200-odd thing is rather meaningless. It's their 40 against your best 40, and your best 40 have higher block hour and other costs. Jazz, after all, has a pension plan and union costs, Westjet does not.2. Of the 200-odd regional aircraft, forget anything smaller than a Q400 - not cost competitive, or not right for the market/mission. A Beech 1900 has higher seat mile costs than a Q400 and isn't appropriately sized to compete with a Q400. The CRJ 50-seaters are heading for the desert. The 35-seat and 50-seat Dash aircraft are old and can't hold a candle in seat mile cost terms to a Q400. So how many planes does Jazz/Chorus have of the 200 that are actually cost-competitive aircraft types? 16 705s and 10 Q400s. But the 705s do some longer hauls, like transborder routes, so the reality is Jazz/Chorus has maybe 15-18 planes that would cost competitive with WJA if all other input costs are equal (which they are not). The YTZ operation has a few more, probably with better costs than Jazz 400s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rozar s'macco Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 No scope changes were required to allow AC to park CRJ's and old DH8's and buy more Q400's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehighclub Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 There will be more regional ASMs, and you won't see a single one of them. Jazz is now sitting on death row with a 2020 execution date. Yes, you'll negotiate.And I wonder what will happen if Jazz fails to provide contracted lift in the event of a dispatchers' strike in September.8 years is a very long journey and neither me or you can predict the outcome The only airline in Canada that could manage the kind of changes envisioned by CR in a matter of months is Jazz. We have the infrastructures and the savoir faire right now to do so. Air Canada is not in a position to lose more money by not respecting a signed contract AND Jazz MUST do something for long term viability so, they are comdemned to negociate Changes are mandatory in both companies right now, but business common sense will prevail on both sides. Too much money involved and not much time to deal with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 There will be more regional ASMs, and you won't see a single one of them. Jazz is now sitting on death row with a 2020 execution date. Yes, you'll negotiate.And I wonder what will happen if Jazz fails to provide contracted lift in the event of a dispatchers' strike in September.dagger,You seem to be previewing the AC opening salvo at Jazz - give us a better deal or we will allocate the new work elsewhere. That is a great opening position but it would be both naive and ignorant to ignore that absent another CCAA filing AC has contractual obligations to Jazz in the $billions$ over the next 8.5 years remaining in the current incarnation of the constantly evolving CPA that unfortunately is predicated on an aged and inefficient fleet of aircraft, many of which are under the primary control of AC.Is AC actually dumb enough to ignore an opportunity to mitigate the otherwise fixed expenses associated with the CPA? I would hope not. And the only path to reduced expense is a deal with Jazz that consensually modifies the CPA to reflect fleet replacement and makes the necessary adjustments to guarantees so that it is not a capacity windfall to Jazz and is done on economic terms that reflect the burdens borne by each of the parties.Sit back and watch. You might be surprised by the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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