ModerateChop Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Air Canada eyes Asia for low-cost airlinePlans call for the new entity to take over Air Canada's overseas flights in and out of Vancouver on wide-body aircraft. Some pilots and flight attendants will be from Canada and others could be based offshore.In an effort to start the discount carrier by the spring of 2013, Air Canada is seeking to bring in an airline partner and a financial investor to avoid having to obtain approval from its pilots' union to forge ahead.http://www.theglobea...article4253877/Airline partner and a financial investor ? Air Asia X and RM ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 A very possible reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 So according to the article AC's LCC plans have been all over the place. One minute it's Mexico and leisure destinations in Europe, the next it's China and they have had discussions with CX and IAG. Umm.....ok then. I guess we'll hear what they want to do when they figure it out for themselves, if they ever do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 80 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Might be a good time for a detailed reading of the new Air Services Agreement with China that was signed in February. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Air Canada eyes Asia for low-cost airlinehttp://www.theglobea...article4253877/Airline partner and a financial investor ? Air Asia X and RM ?I think Victor Li should be the investor. That would be poetic justice, wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rozar s'macco Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 This should be great news for Air Canada employees. Asia, expansion, international partner, new investor, growth...The changes to the pilot contract that would put AC on par or below cost with any other airline are so minuscule as to be laughable. Yet the CEO has embarked upon a personal vendetta that almost certainly will cost the company more in the long run. I thought the $5m pay cheques and so forth were meant to ensure personal grudges didn't enter into the operation of a company. I've never been so disillusioned. Anyhow, is Singapore and or Virgin joining STAR? Or is AC leaving it. How does United, Lufthansa feel about AC starting a JV with a rival alliance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiburon Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Let's see, Air Canada cobbles together a mish-mash low cost operation, used airplanes,foreign crews, Chinese OC, to compete with Singapore and Cathay...ya that'll work.This thing will be fought by the unions on all fronts, if it even gets off the ground it will collapse in a heap in 12 months like every other AC idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 This thing will be fought by the unions on all fronts, if it even gets off the ground it will collapse in a heap in 12 months like every other AC idea.Sure it will but the real question of importance to our management is whether they will be able to give themselves enough stock options and then cash them out before the collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Say Altitude Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Has anyone taken a look at the compensation rates the crew brokers are paying for contract pilots in Asia right now? It sure isn't the "LCC" wages that AC thinks they should be flown at - it's higher. So they want to use offshore crews that will cost them more in salary for arguably less experienced foreign crews?And the delta on salary numbers is substantial depending on the operator - it's not mice nuts...Confusing - or maybe they are just posturing ahead of FOS.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Has anyone taken a look at the compensation rates the crew brokers are paying for contract pilots in Asia right now? It sure isn't the "LCC" wages that AC thinks they should be flown at - it's higher.Wages are only one element of compensation. There might be money to be saved on work rules, per diems, pension and other benefits etc.The article cites only an "industry official" as its source. I'm thus inclined on the one hand to take it with a grain if salt. It seems to me unlikely that AC would have detailed plans drawn up before it knows what or will or won't achieve in arbitration. On the other hand, the company now appears to be adrift to the extent that no half-baked plan of theirs would surprise me. If they really expect political support for a plan that would involve laying off Canadian employees while they hire offshore they might have another thing coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 They only have to cite an artificial labour shortage; Thai workers flown in to staff Newfoundland fish planthttp://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2012/06/01/nl-thai-workers-quinlans-602.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Confusing - or maybe they are just posturing ahead of FOS....There has been a war room set up at AC HQ now for many months staffed by senior executives, professional advisors, lawyers, investment banks, and Sean Dunphyhttp://www.stikeman....le_16250_EN.pdfAnd you believe that this is posturing? You have no idea what is coming down the pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Pilot wages are not the issue!!! If you look at Jetstar their FO's start at over $100,000/year and Captains base is over $150,000 --ALL STARTING WAGES!!!!!!! Everything over 75 hours is OT, 9% to the federal retirement etc etc etc. Many contracts in Asia pay upwards of $20,000US/month for a captain.What you do not see at these companies is FA's, ground crews and other relatively unskilled labour making $80,000 a year or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
internet Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 CCAA when the cash slows down as the summer booking curve tails off in Aug. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 If they really expect political support for a plan that would involve laying off Canadian employees while they hire offshore they might have another thing coming.Let me see now, an all-Y 777-300ER would have over 500 passengers, vs 349 max in the current configuration. That's an additional 150 Chinese or Hong Kong or Vietnamese or Japanese or Taiwanese tourists per flight per day for the tourism industry in this country. If net fares are 40% lower, they'll even fill those extra seats on a regular basis. There will be some political support for that. Imagine YVR counting all of the extra revenue from their AIF. Imagine the provincial governments counting all of the extra hotel nights, and bus charters, and catering jobs.Of course, even with less restrictive work rules and as you say, lower pension, per diem costs, etc, there will still be a net increase in staff just to have legal minimum staffing ratios for 500-plus passengers, so it's not necessarily a given that there will be fewer Canadian-based employees. And there is always the argument that some foreign-based staff is not uncommon in the airline industry - see DL and UA in Asia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 There has been a war room set up at AC HQ now for many months staffed by senior executives, professional advisors, lawyers, investment banks, and Sean Dunphyhttp://www.stikeman....le_16250_EN.pdfAnd you believe that this is posturing? You have no idea what is coming down the pipe.Sean Dunphy,,,,,,,The next CEO appointee at AC to feed at the trough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dork Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Bingo...Throw in a little Robert Milton Asia X action with DD and it's just one great big offshore party.The Minister Of Labor is acting in the best interest of working Canadians. The fact the 28 000 are about to have their jobs moved offshore doesn't seem to matter now.When federal tax receipts dip to an all time low in about 5 years time everyone will get to feel the pain. With 20 000 Govt jobs on the chopping block and Ontario losing 19 000 manufacturing jobs last month this must surely be the best path for the country.The poor Catepillar folks and the rest of us don't stand a chance in Canada. The war is on workers of all types. You can volunteer though...anytime for free.The sarcasm font is not available here unfortunately.AC is just a microcosm of the pension heist going on in Canada right now.DorkCanadian....These Jobs Are Not For You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 And there is always the argument that some foreign-based staff is not uncommon in the airline industry - see DL and UA in Asia.True, but the Asian-based staffed at DL and UA operate mostly--not exclusively, but mostly--on flights within Asia. A move by AC to turf Canadian-based staff and replace them with foreigners who'd be based offshore would be far more controversial. Certainly plenty of companies have laid off here and hired elsewhere, but with an election coming in BC I can't see politicians in that province supporting AC In an effort to do it.I wonder anyway if the writer of the article or his source got a little carried away. When CR first made mention of a discount carrier last year, I thought about new seasonal YVR-Japan routes for it. It wouldn't surprise me to see YVR-NRT/HND go to a LCC, either, but I wonder if further plans of a YVR base for the new carrier would involve service to new destinations such as MNL, cities in China that we don't currently serve etc, rather than replacement of current mainline service to PEK, PVG or HKG.Throwing in the towel on premium traffic to HKG or mainland China would be a pretty radical move. Then again, when you look at the fares that are sometimes available from the USA to China/Japan on AC via YVR you have to wonder if AC gets much high-yield traffic there anyway. Dirt cheap fares are often readily available, and they're offered just to fill a 200 seat 767. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Throwing in the towel on premium traffic to HKG or mainland China would be a pretty radical move. Then again, when you look at the fares that are sometimes available from the USA to China/Japan on AC via YVR you have to wonder if AC gets much high-yield traffic there anyway. Dirt cheap fares are often readily available, and they're offered just to fill a 200 seat 767.The cheap fares are certainly endemic to all Asian markets but so too is the desire of passengers to purchase fares that offer comfort for the gruelling 12 to 14 hour flight legs that are very common from North America. If anything the J cabins on many Air Canada flights are not big enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkavafian Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Let me see now, an all-Y 777-300ER would have over 500 passengers, vs 349 max in the current configuration. That's an additional 150 Chinese or Hong Kong or Vietnamese or Japanese or Taiwanese tourists per flight per day for the tourism industry in this country. If net fares are 40% lower, they'll even fill those extra seats on a regular basis. Not do be nitpicking here but 500 PAX in a 777-300ER on a 14 hour leg?The foreign carrier could only do its home country to Canada. China-Canada, or Japan-Canada. A Chinese carrier could not do Japan-Canada. Via China flights to Canada would not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Not do be nitpicking here but 500 PAX in a 777-300ER on a 14 hour leg?The foreign carrier could only do its home country to Canada. China-Canada, or Japan-Canada. A Chinese carrier could not do Japan-Canada. Via China flights to Canada would not work.The number of passengers on the flight is irrelevant to the individual. The individual cares about legroom and elbow space. The economy seat width and legroom in a 500-seat 777-300ER can be the same as it is today, and I've flown 15 hours in such a seat on YYZ-HKG. So do 190 people each and every night.As for the China carrier issue, the Globe story suggest a plurality ownership for AC, with a private investor and a foreign carrier comprising the balance of the ownership. If if the private investor is Canadian, the airline can be Canadian for purposes of domicile and meeting Canadian ownership requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 The economy seat width and legroom in a 500-seat 777-300ER can be the same as it is todayAre you sure? That would mean putting almost 200 seats in the amount of aircraft real estate that AC currently uses for 42J suites plus a small bar area. There'd be need for additional washrooms too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Red tail, Blue tailmaybe got a striped tailpurple plane, green plane'least it's got a main planegood grief have you heard what their gonna call this bird?Zip, Zoom, JetsGo, SongWhere the hell did they go wrong?Virgin, Vega, Red Star,I'd much rather go by carQantas, Pioneerthank god there's not a U-SteerWho gives a crapin the endjust as long as it don't bendFancy flying machineryit's all the same to you and meif someones looking after itreally no one gives a **bleep**they'll shop for nickelsforget about usand think they've ridden on a stinking busSo paint it just as you see fitwith peoples' names all over itchecks or stripes or pokadotsline 'em all up for painting slots....and all you touch and all you seeis all your life will ever be...Run.... Rabbit run..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Are you sure? That would mean putting almost 200 seats in the amount of aircraft real estate that AC currently uses for 42J suites plus a small bar area. There'd be need for additional washrooms too.Here's the seat chart. Do the mathhttp://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Canada/Air_Canada_Boeing_777-300.phpCurrently, 307 Y seats take up 63% of the floor space between the front and rear exit doors. Eliminate the J dividers, and you get to about 500 seats. with the same seat width and pitch. There are five galley/service areas for those 307 passengers and eight lavs. For J, you have four galley areas and three lavs. But you wouldn't need more than two more galley areas to fun Y capacity up to 500, so I submit to you that two of the four galley areas in J could be converted to lavs which would be proportionate to the increase in Y capacity. You'd have 13 lavs on each aircraft, or one per every 38.46 customers. The current ratio in Y is one lav per 38.38 customers.Now, this is not scientific, but I don't think it's way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Boeing claim that a 777-300 can seat up to 550 in all Y configuration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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