Car Prices

[Seeker]

CE: "The government has their hand on everything I need to buy." Yes, that's the way it works. You live close enough to cross the border to buy a large portion of what you "need" while most Canadians don't. You are a free-rider; you buy your stuff in Washington but then come back to Canada to enjoy all the benefits of being a Canadian. Let me ask you this; "if you fall off the ladder while hanging your cheap-US-bought-non-CSA-approved-Chinese-made Christmas lights and break your leg are you going to go across the border to an emergency room and pay out of your pocket or are you going to go to the Canadian emergency room for the "free" health care? Where do you think the money for that service comes from anyway?

I should clarify that I don't have a problem with someone taking a vacation to Hawaii and spending their money on whatever but organizing your life around being able to cross the border solely for buying seems different to me (yes, I understand that's a distinction I've chosen to make). If you feel the net economic benefit to your family offsets the ethical implications - good for you, I guess.

In the interest of full disclosure I have to divulge that I bought a "I Love NY" souvenir t-shirt for my kid while on a LGA layover last week and I bought some chinese-made CR123 batteries from ebay this week (although I couldn't find a Canadian manufacturer and I did buy from a Canadian seller).

[J.O.]

I'm sorry but like Seeker, I also have a problem with cross border shopping. Taking your business elsewhere will do diddley squat about changing the tax situation in Canada. As a matter of fact, it can only make it worse over time as we put more and more Canadians out of work. When people buy their services elsewhere for less money, we add to the tax burden with higher unemployment costs.

Everyone loves a deal until that deal affects their own ability to feed their family. I happen to enjoy the benefits of being a Canadian (like universal health care) and I know that it costs more to have them. I also recognize that our population density is a factor in our higher cost of living but as a Canadian I have to be willing to accept ALL that comes with that privilege. As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for. The more we cheapen our economy, the fewer Canadians there will be to buy our own services.

[moeman]

Reminds me a bit of my Greek in-laws who moan and groan about the new austerity measures but have never had a problem paying for a lot of their goods and sevices "under the table" to save on the taxes. Actually, it reminds me a bit of my relatives in Quebec too.

[Spinnaker]

Even when you cross the boarder to shop you are subject to the taxes coming back in. We did several one day trips at Christmas, they have a cashier set up to take your HST upon re-entry. As per the thread here, its the disparity in prices for the same products. Why on earth would I spend $1000 on my Bridgestone tires at the Costco in Richmond where they were $620 at the Costco in Bellingham? This is after I paid HST PLUS Washington State tax too. J.O. and Seeker, you are far more noble of Canadians than I to say you wouldn't drive 25 minutes to save that much.

I am asked often where the 'deals' are for airfare. I am not going to lie. The deals are south.

When I can travel confirmed with a family of four, SEA to FLL, for a cruise in Florida for less than I can at standby rates YVR-YYZ-FLL, then something is wrong. Natural forces have to take place to balance that at some point and I'm not going to make any effort to slow that down. It must change. Because of cross boarder fliers BC has eliminated their portion of the fuel taxes but it won't really change until the airport rent scam is gone AND the airport authorities decide they want to pass it on to airlines. Until then, they can spend all they want on jelly fish for the aquariums but it won't stop myself or the many from taking the flight with the cheaper price. Does not buying the service do 'diddley squat'? Not in this case, BC Government has listened and now we hope for the Feds.

[Seeker]

Spinnaker;

I know you pay the HST when you come back (if you declare the stuff - which I assume someone who does it regularly will do). That's only part of the issue though, if you're not supporting the local economy then you aren't supporting Canadian jobs and income taxes that goes with those jobs. You also aren't contributing to the business tax base etc, etc. Stuff costs more in Canada for many reasons; bi-lingual packaging, testing to CSA standards, higher overhead due to smaller customer base, higher shipping charges, higher fuel taxes - the list goes on but none of it gets cheaper by reducing the volume sold. Buying your stuff outside the country simply makes the rest of the stuff that much more expensive.

As for the tires - I did just buy two new sets of tires - bought them from the local Canadian Tire store - I got a good deal and someone from my community is employed because of it.

[Spinnaker]

You bought two sets, I bought one. I'll employ the boarder guard, you employ the tire guy at Can tire. Why not kick Costco out of Canada then and only have Canadian retailers and also prevent foreign ownership rules? Where exactly do you want to draw the line on globalization?

Did you support one Canadian or four Chinese buy shopping at Canadian Tire? Where were your tires made? US or Canada?

[CanadaEH]

If it makes you all warm and fuzzy to overpay for goods and services in Canada then good for you.

[Seeker]

If it makes you all warm and fuzzy to overpay for goods and services in Canada then good for you.

Hey, CE, you didn't answer my question about which ER you would use.

[Seeker]

Where exactly do you want to draw the line on globalization?

I don't think going outside the country to buy your tires because it's cheaper for you personally has anything to do with globalization.

[Thebean]

I had a Ford Exploder 20 years ago. A piece of crap.

WestJet had AME's that could take apart a PWJT8D-17 and put it back together faster than a Ford tech at the local dealership could sort out a leak in the air conditioning system

Never again.

[Seeker]

I had a Ford Exploder 20 years ago. A piece of crap.

WestJet had AME's that could take apart a PWJT8D-17 and put it back together faster than a Ford tech at the local dealership could sort out a leak in the air conditioning system

Never again.

So no BMW and no Ford. I've got a family member who has owned several VWs and can't say enough good about them and a neighbour who swears he'll walk before ever owning another VW after he had a bad one - for every person leaving RBC to go to CIBC there's one doing the opposite. There's probably some guy reading this right now who's tired of dealing with his Mercedes and is planning to get an X5 next.

[CanadaEH]

Hey, CE, you didn't answer my question about which ER you would use.

Since I pay taxes and live in Canada I think the answer is obvious.

[Seeker]

Since I pay taxes and live in Canada I think the answer is obvious.

I rest my case - just another greedy individual who wants to have their cake and eat it too.

[J.O.]

J.O. and Seeker, you are far more noble of Canadians than I to say you wouldn't drive 25 minutes to save that much.

Well I am a lot farther away from the border than that, but that too is part of the problem. Canadians who live close to the border have an unfair advantage as consumers over the rest of us, and by having some folks shopping over there, it forces the rest of us to contribute more to make up for the difference. If you are fortunate enough to have never been through the personal experience of being unemployed due to undercutting, it's probably tough to appreciate. I have been through it and so have thousands of others. The solution is not more cross-border shopping, IMHO.

[CanadaEH]

I rest my case - just another greedy individual who wants to have their cake and eat it too.

What case have you rested? I pay income tax; I pay taxes on the capital gains I make; I paid taxes on the homes I've purchased; I paid taxes on the cars I've purchased; I pay taxes on the utilities and property tax every year; I pay taxes on the strata fees, hydro, gas, insurance, cable, and internet, and cell phones each month; I pay BCMSP and I pay for my medical benefits; I pay taxes on my food - both at the grocery store and restaurants; I pay taxes on movies; the list goes on and on. What makes me any less eligible to take advantage of a medical system (since you brought it up) that I help fund? I'm not some Canadian citizen living in Libya expecting my government to bring me "home" when sh!t hits the fan.

[GDR]

I don't shop in the US normally if for no other reason that it isn't as easy to do so from the YVR island but I do have a son and his family right across the border in Washington. I guess what bothers me is that, at least in the case of cars the only reason that I can see for the difference in price is that cars used to cost more and the manufacturers are quite happy to maintain higher margins on the cars they sell in Canada.

From the manufacturers point of view they make a profit of "X" in the US. In Canada they make a profit of "X" plus 5 to 15 or more thousand dollars. If some Canadians buy their cars in the US they still make "X" on those cars, which is the same profit they would make if they reduced their profit margins in Canada to those in the US. In the meantime however they are quite happy to go on making the additional 5-15 thousand from those who continue to buy their cars in Canada.

JMHO

Greg

[mo32a]

Well I am a lot farther away from the border than that, but that too is part of the problem. Canadians who live close to the border have an unfair advantage as consumers over the rest of us, and by having some folks shopping over there, it forces the rest of us to contribute more to make up for the difference. If you are fortunate enough to have never been through the personal experience of being unemployed due to undercutting, it's probably tough to appreciate. I have been through it and so have thousands of others. The solution is not more cross-border shopping, IMHO.

What about those that live close to the Alberta border and shop there so they don't have to pay sales tax?

[Thebean]

So no BMW and no Ford. I've got a family member who has owned several VWs and can't say enough good about them and a neighbour who swears he'll walk before ever owning another VW after he had a bad one - for every person leaving RBC to go to CIBC there's one doing the opposite. There's probably some guy reading this right now who's tired of dealing with his Mercedes and is planning to get an X5 next.

BMW's are great.

It's the service that, generally speaking, sucks in Canada.

I took the X5 down to Bellevue to get some minor issues dealt with and they couldn't do enough for the customer.

[Seeker]

I pay income tax; I pay taxes on the capital gains I make; I paid taxes on the homes I've purchased; I paid taxes on the cars I've purchased; I pay taxes on the utilities and property tax every year; I pay taxes on the strata fees, hydro, gas, insurance, cable, and internet, and cell phones each month; I pay BCMSP and I pay for my medical benefits; I pay taxes on my food - both at the grocery store and restaurants; I pay taxes on movies; the list goes on and on.

CE, yeah, I know I'm being a jerk here. There was a time in my life when I lived closer to the border (and was a lot younger) and I would go across to fill my truck from time to time (and pick up a case of Schlitz!) so I know what you're talking about. I guess I'm just a little sensitive because I've been reading comments on the Globe and Mail and CBC websites for a few months from people talking about how they go to Buffalo or Bellingham to fly because Air Canada is "such a ripoff". As an airline person that drives me crazy but, really, it must be the same for the guy who owns a plumbing store or a stereo shop when they hear about people driving across to buy stuff because the prices are too high in Canada.

Anyway, how you spend your money is none of my business and it's certainly not my place to pass any moral judgement so I apologize for getting up in your face.

[J.O.]

What about those that live close to the Alberta border and shop there so they don't have to pay sales tax?

Well in fact, I believe the provincial tax laws state that they should be paying provincial sales tax for their province, just as the Ontario folks are supposed to be paying the HST (outside of duty free) when coming back from Buffalo. Problem is, the provinces haven't got the capability to collect it, but that's another matter. And I doubt there are too many "honest" folks who will send a cheque to their Premier to cover it.

I guess I'm sounding like a ball buster on this but I've always believed that you can't be part of the solution when you're contributing to the problem. IMHO of course.

[moeman]

Is there a different cost for the auto manufacturer to sell a car in Canada versus the US? Are they taxed X dollars per vehicle produced and sold in Canada but are charged less if they export the vehicle? What about tax rates/costs for dealerships? Are part of the taxes collected supposed to pay for greenhouse gases, road repairs, etc. that maybe aren't collected in that manner in the US? Just curious.

[Fido]

The cars in Canada are different.

To what degree this contributes to the cost difference I do not have figures. The government announced in the last budget that they are going to try and get this harmonized in quite a few industries. In airlines we should all be familiar with the problem that the Canadian government will not accept a change to an air worthiness certificate done in the USA as OK in Canada.

[Spinnaker]

Given the choice I would take US health care over Canadian... but that is for a different thread.

[J.O.]

Given the choice I would take US health care over Canadian... but that is for a different thread.

Even if it means your neighbour could go bankrupt simply because they got cancer? Fill your boots, I'm staying home.

[boestar]

The cars in Canada are different.

To what degree this contributes to the cost difference I do not have figures. The government announced in the last budget that they are going to try and get this harmonized in quite a few industries. In airlines we should all be familiar with the problem that the Canadian government will not accept a change to an air worthiness certificate done in the USA as OK in Canada.

H

ow are the cars different in Canada from the US? They are built in the same factories, from the same parts , to the same safety standards. The ONLY ones that are different are the cars that need to meet California Emission Standards. Those standards for C.A.R.B. are much higher than the rest of the US and Canada although Canadas standards are not far off.

The original subject of the thread was buying cars in the US and then the big discussion began about the ethics of cross border shopping. Back to the original topic If the car is built in Canada and I buy it in the US, how am I hurting the Canadian Economy in any way other than a single salesman at a dealership.