Seneca College And Jazz

[W5]

Seneca inks innovative deal with Jazz Aviation

April 18, 2012, Toronto - Third-year Seneca Bachelor of Aviation Technology students will be eligible for the Jazz cadet program that includes direct entry into the airline’s hiring pool.

All qualified third-year students will be offered an interview with Jazz and successful candidates will become Jazz/Seneca cadets in their fourth year. As they maintain the required academic and flight line achievement throughout their fourth year, upon graduation and successful completion of Jazz Aviation LP’s standardized tests and evaluations, they will be entered into the Jazz hiring pool.

“We are pleased that Jazz has acknowledged our renowned Seneca aviation program by committing to our graduating class with this direct career pathway,” said David Agnew, Seneca President. “This partnership speaks to the quality and professionalism of the graduates of Seneca’s Bachelor of Aviation Technology.”

Seneca’s Bachelor of Aviation Technology program is the only one of its kind in Canada. It provides a rigorous aviation technology-based curriculum and the application of this theory to aviation. The breadth of knowledge and skills prepares students to operate a complex aircraft in a multi-crew environment, to understand the technologies and human factors that affect the successful operation of an aircraft and to assume the professional responsibility associated with being a commercial pilot. Students also learn about business management, airport operations and planning, and air carrier administration to gain a broad perspective of the aviation industry and ultimately gain access to a greater variety of careers in the industry.

“At Jazz, we feel that it is our responsibility to develop and mentor the future generations of aviators, and prepare them to enter a very rewarding career,” said Captain Steve Linthwaite, Vice-President, Flight Operations, Jazz. “One of the ways we do this is by partnering with a recognized accredited aviation program, such as Seneca College’s Bachelor of Aviation Technology, allowing Jazz to be part of the process for building the foundation and developmental criteria for these future pilots.”

[SkyBlazer]

No different than those jumping into the back of a 27 I guess.

How will those cadets ever upgrade or get an actual license - will Jazz be providing PIC undersupervision ?

SB

[GTFA]

The right seat of a -8 or RJ the same as the back of a '27?

Are you kidding?

This situation poses some significant challenges for the airline, the candidates AND the Captains they will be flying with even after line indoc. We, as an industry need to find ways to allow all parties to benefit from the upcoming pilot shortage in Canada. This looks like a progressive first step. What's next?

GTFA

[rudder]

Jazz had to do something as there will be a significant exodus from the junior ranks when WJR starts hiring. For the most part, the right seat at Jazz has simply turned into a step along the way to the next job. The termination of the 757 contract - the only hope of work beyond the AC CPA - will open the flood gates.

[DEFCON]

Sorry, but IMHO, cadet programs make a joke of the professional aviator.

Has anyone noticed, there's a physician shortage too? Why not let the graduate of a St. Johns first aid course start practicing medicine in some limited way, like nursing? With a change in the 'rules & standards', nursing time would be freed up allowing them to do other things, like surgery and move the system along? I can see it now; I’m sorry Mr. Smith; your Doctor just became very ill and can’t replace your heart, but don’t worry; his nurse has watched him do this surgery a few times now and she’s going to stand in for the good Dr.

Lawyers often have ‘articling students’ & ‘new to the bar’ types working with them. When you contract with the experienced lawyer will you accept having one of his subordinates represent you at trial if the ‘real’ lawyer is unable to attend for one reason or another?

[rudder]

This is a continuation of the MPL debate and whether the regulators are willing to sign on. In the US, the era of sub-1500 hour part 121 pilots is coming to a close. Interesting that one branch of Government endorses zero-time airline pilots and another is granting unrestricted work permits to foreign pilots as if the positions that they were filling was akin to migrant farm workers. It should all be part of the same discourse (and remedy).

[boestar]

Doctors already do this Defcon. It is called an internship. That young doctor that you see in the hospital may just be LEARNING his trade. It is a comparison that proved that the cadet program can work.

[DEFCON]

I think you missed my point above Boestar, especially with the Dr. analogy.

[Mitch Cronin]

Doctors already do this Defcon. It is called an internship. That young doctor that you see in the hospital may just be LEARNING his trade. It is a comparison that proved that the cadet program can work.

If you ask me (and I know you didn't, but hey, what the heck, I can shimmy my two cents in here), this cadet program is exactly the sort of thing that can lead to a cockpit full of question marks letting their ship fall out of the sky, a la Colgan and AF447. ...a lack of experience and aviation 'wisdom' which is only attainable through experience, is not what we want from either seat when things go off the preprogrammed norms.

Passengers should not be a part of, nor anywhere near the learning curve. This is not the roaring twenties. The fellas in the front of passenger hauling, "transport" aircraft should not be cutting their teeth in that position, they should be well seasoned already.

[J.O.]

Jazz has recently hired some very sharp talent in their training and standards department. Now that the 757s are going, maybe these folks can go to work on developing a training program for their new cadets.

[rudder]

Jazz has recently hired some very sharp talent in their training and standards department. Now that the 757s are going, maybe these folks can go to work on developing a training program for their new cadets.

Some staying. Some leaving.

[Guest]

I've said it before- I wouldn't trade my 3 short years of light turboprop time in the 'north' for anything.

Not that I was asked either, but Jazz operates into some of the harshest environmental conditions in North America.

Eventually these 'cadets' will become Captains (somehow). What credibility will they have as they are in command (and therefore mentoring) positions?

Book and procedurally smart, absolutely. But if one has to think outside the box, not so much.

Reading accident reports where lives were saved by skill, I have to wonder how many of those outcomes were achieved by so-called cadet-type pilots (United 242, AC 143, USAir 1549 just to name a few).

I certainly didn't see everything in my '703' days. I don't think I even saw a lot. But I saw enough to learn about my abilities, and my limits.

Experience cannot be bought nor taught, and it certainly shouldn't be skipped.

Sadly, economics trumps safety and common sense.

Seems to be the new reality.

[xxx]

Yes, friends, as the singer said, “the times they are a changin’...” We have entered an era of Pay-For-Training/Pay-For-A-Job. But, I don’t mean the PFT where a pilot pays for his/her airline ground school and flight training. I mean the PFT practiced by US aviation universities. That’s right, our own schools are practicing PFT right before our very eyes. How?? Here are a couple examples:

1. Come to one large mid-western school in the northern plains, and participate in their highly regarded program for selected students. At the end of 4 years, find yourself assigned as an F/O in a 4-engine regional jet with a large regional airline. Yes! You! Mr./Ms. newly-minted commercial pilot. Just sign up with us, pay your money, and away you go. We taught you all you need to know... By the way, several captains with the major airline affiliated with the regional describe this situation as a “CRM nightmare”.

2. Come to a large beach-front school near the Southeastern branch of Mickey Mouse World, and get a job with a large regional. Maybe even a type-rating on their brand new BE-1900 or B-737 sims (Level D, of course). Again, pay your money, get your degree, we’ll get you “in” with a regional and you can bypass all those poor slobs that are getting real experience...

While I will be the last one to knock giving opportunities to those who have earned them, I will be the first to say “Whoa” when we get ahead of ourselves. The last thing we want to do is create a situation that “sets-up” our future pilots for failure. Let’s step back and examine what we need in this industry. We need proficient, knowledgeable, educated, well-rounded pilots. We need pilots who are well-schooled in regulatory issues, aeronautics, aerodynamics, CRM, human factors, aircraft technological advances, advanced avionics, and safety. These same pilots must also be able to fly, and be able to handle the airplane and manage its systems in all types of weather, ATC/airport congestion, and in unforeseen situations. And these pilots must be able to contribute to the success of the flight as a fully-functioning member of a two- or three-pilot crew.

How do we “create” these pilots of tomorrow? Education, flight training, and CRM training are major elements of this training. First, they need to be educated. While a 4-year degree is not a requirement to be a good pilot, the 4-year degree is the accepted standard used by Human Resource managers at most large carriers (regional and major) to screen candidates for educational accomplishments. The hiring boom that has begun may lead to a supply-and-demand situation that dictates reduction or elimination of this requirement, but don’t bet on it. “Educated” is a broad term, but should mean schooling in the subject areas that I listed as necessary for a good pilot, plus a well-rounded general education. The aviation colleges seem to do a pretty good job of educating our future pilots. The technical education offered by these schools is superb. Secondly, the pilot of tomorrow, like the pilot of today, needs real flight time and experience. The examples that follow are actual situations that have occurred at aviation colleges (large and small) that involve creative (and illegal) logging of flight time:

1. Two pilots in a Multi-engine airplane, with a CFI in back. All 3 logging PIC time.

2. Two pilots going to NIFA in a CE-150. No “hood”. Neither a CFI. Both logging PIC time.

3. Pilots logging time in a simulator/FTD as “Multi” and “Total” flight time.

4. Pilot on jump-seat of a B-727. Pilot’s father is the Captain. Dad signs off “4th in command” time in son’s logbook. Son now with regional carrier. Professor proud of his student and supports this method of gaining B-727 time.

Let’s get real folks! Pilots need to be exposed to actual flying to develop the motor skills, flow patterns, and habits that are used sub-consciously by experienced pilots. While training in simulators is known to be superior in many ways to training in an airplane, at some point, the pilot needs to get out in the real world and do some actual flying. This allows full integration and correlation of skill and knowledge in a real-time flight scenario. The result of such training and experience is the development of the “spare mental capacity” that is required to deal with the situations and contingencies that are inherent to all flights. At the commercial pilot level (new pilot), these skills are well-honed for local operations. But the pilot has very little experience in the IFR system, all weather operations, complex aircraft operations, high-density airport operations, mountain flying, etc. The new pilot will quickly find that all the “simulation” in the world cannot prepare him or her for the tasks at hand.

This rampant logging of questionable flight time hurts not only those who are scrupulously honest in logging their time accurately, but also hurts those who log this “bogus” time. Yes, flight time is one of the means used by airlines to select pilots. This is unfortunate, as flight time does not always reflect quality or breadth of experience, but it is the reality of the current hiring situation. Please, university faculty, make sure you lead the way in promoting integrity in your students’ logging of flight time. If you don’t they may fall flat on their butts when put to the test. If that test is “for real” in an airplane, people will die.

Go back and read that last sentence. If you are tempted to “pad” your logbook with meaningless time, instead of working to build quality experience, go back and read it again until you are convinced. Accidents happen in this business. They happen for a variety of reasons, but human factors (usually pilot factors) are the leading cause. When accidents happen, people die. Training and experience are two of our best defenses against these accidents. You owe it to yourself, your crew, your passengers, your airline, your family, your friends, your fellow pilots, and your profession to be proficient and qualified.

I’ll bet a few of you are wound-up by now and asking the age-old question, “Yeah, but how do I get that experience?”. We’ll get to that shortly, but please don’t try to get that experience as part of an airline crew. The First Officer is NOT a trainee. The F/O is a highly qualified pro who is, by law, qualified to perform the same tasks (with minor exceptions) as the Captain on his/her checkrides. The Captain and the F/O (and F/E, if you’re lucky enough to work with one of these increasingly rare types) are a CREW. While most F/Os lack the depth of experience of the captain (especially in the particular aircraft type), they are light-years ahead of new commercial pilots in all aspects of flying ability, knowledge and experience. The crew interact as experienced operators to create a safe and efficient flight environment. This experience that they possess did not come from attending classes, nor from CRM exercises; it came from years of flying airplanes.

Get your experience the old-fashioned way. Go out and fly as PIC in an airplane you can handle. Learn it well. Fly other airplanes. Learn their characteristics. Become a pro (this is a state of mind -- an attitude toward your profession). Flight instruction, while not involving a lot of “stick time”, will teach you more about flying than you have learned while obtaining your commercial pilot certificate. Pipeline patrol, sightseeing, aerial photography, skydiving operations (they jump, you stay in your seat), are all good for building experience. Get on with a charter operator. Fly night freight. Fly in the military. As you transition from one type to a more complex type (at a rate you can handle), you’ll build that elusive experience (which would be better measured by years, seasons and number of flights, rather than by hours).

While we’re on the issue of experience, let’s cut through all the crap that you hear about type ratings. At 250 hours you’ve got as much business being in command of a Citation, Beechjet, BE1900, or B-737, as you do in command of the Space Shuttle. Yup. That’s what I said. “In Command”. That means you’re “it”. You are the final authority as to the conduct of the flight. You help to create a comfortable, well-run flight-deck. You contribute. You listen. You discuss. You direct. You teach. You learn. You fly. You support. You make decisions. You handle problems. The other pilot(s) look to you for mature, seasoned, sound judgment. Sorry, but at your level, you’re just not ready. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is setting you up for a big fall, or just wants your money. I realize that you can probably pass the type-rating check, but that is a snap compared to what will be required of you as a captain. After all, that is what that piece of paper entitles you to do -- act as PIC of that type aircraft, with a brand-new low-experience SIC sitting next to you, a bunch of trusting souls in the back, absolutely at-minimums weather at your destination, with an alternate that is no piece of cake either, and handle anything that might go “Murphy’s way”. Don’t be fooled into thinking you are ready for that. Instead, ask yourself why your school is offering that type-rating. Could it be to draw more students? Those simulators cost MILLIONS of dollars, dollars that could be spent on an education you need and flight experience you can use (or maybe not spent at all, with lower tuition the outcome). Tell your school to put away the expensive unusable toys.

Last, but certainly not least, pilots need a solid grounding in CRM. Practice CRM techniques every time you fly. Fly with other pilots. You must be able to interact in a crew environment, and the time to start learning is now. The benefits of solid CRM programs are recognized throughout the world as contributing to a safer flying environment by maximizing the crew’s synergy. I realize this is hard to do in the situation most of you find yourselves in, but do the best you can -- it will pay off in the future. Try to fly with a single-pilot operator. Even if you don’t get much actual “stick time”, you’ll gain important experience by watching and participating. Most of these pilots would be happy to help someone else, and happy to have the extra set of eyes and ears. One last thought, attend a good CRM course.

Now, let me set the record straight. I am not a “Grinch”, nor am I an old curmudgeon. I have seen hard times, but I’ve been incredibly blessed with some very good deals in my career. I merely see us, as an industry, irresponsibly creating some very un-realistic expectations for our next generation of pilots.

To My Fellow Pilots:

Keep holding the standards high and protecting the profession. We all know that there is no easy way to succeed. Do all you can to encourage and assist these future pilots, and help them to understand that the “no easy way” method might help to save their ass someday.

To Airline Management:

Give new pilots all the breaks you can. But realize that at some point PFT brings you pilots with money (or debt) and does not bring you the best group of pilots you could get. By the way, do you advocate PFT for managers, or do they need to have an established “track record”? That’s what I thought....

To University Faculty and Administrators:

Please do not allow the lure of high student volume, or the pressure put on you by the administration to cause you to lose sight of your real job. Your job is to mold, develop, guide, encourage, teach and assist some very talented young (and not so young) pilots on their path to careers as professional pilots. They must be aware that real success is not achieved overnight. They must be well-prepared for the future. “Looking good on paper” doesn’t count. You are their link to reality. You are the industry’s link to the future.

To Future Pilots:

You are the future. Please push yourself. Don’t expect a quick route to the majors. You’re gonna work your butt off to be successful. Study hard. Study beyond the required courses. Learn everything you can about your profession, including its history. There’s a lot in our history we don’t want to repeat. Insist on being ”pushed” in your flight training. Set your standards extremely high. Be a pro. Settle in for the long haul -- you’re in a tough career, but one with many rewards. Enjoy the good breaks you’ll get in your career. Display integrity. Demand the best from yourself on every flight. Set a positive example. Learn, and never stop learning. Teach, and never stop teaching. Remember those who helped you in your training and in your career, and be sure to “pass it on” to others who will need your help someday. You’re coming into a great hiring boom, and opportunities will be there. Don’t ever give up. Good luck. God bless. Fly safe.

(Signed)

An Anonymous B747 Captain Who Cares

(Not me who wrote this, I read this letter every few years and post it when times like these happen.)

xxx

[hollywud]

While I agree with the general sentiment expressed here, I think it is a bit overblown. Of course we would all like to have the most experienced and capable pilots sitting next to us on every flight but as someone here said "times are changing" and the reality of a shortfall of experienced flight crew in Canada is plainly evident. Nothing is going to change the fact (short of a global catastrophe that no one wants) that in terms of experience levels, cockpit gradients are going to rise significantly. This does not mean to say that a cadet program cannot be introduced safely into an airline.

I recall in 2001 when working in Hong Kong our first batch of cadets pilots graduated from Adelaide, Australia. These cadets, called Second Officers, were thrust (pardon the pun) directly into the right seat of the A320 and as our expansion increased, onto the A330. This cadet program was introduced not because of a shortage of experience but as a cost saving measure. While there certainly were teething problems the airline managed to avoid any major incidents/accidents that could be contributed solely to having a cadet in the right seat. In fact, several of the original group were upgraded to Captain prior to the 5000 hour total time requirement set by the company. The advantage of our cadet program over our competitors was simply this: our cadets actually had to learn to fly the airliner from the get-go. There were plenty of restrictions placed on them early on but these restrictions were gradually lifted as they gained experience. I would argue that Jazz has probably some of the most highly qualified DH-8 and RJ Captains (both in training and on the line) in the world. I see no reason why the top Seneca graduates could not be properly trained to fly the DH-8 or CRJ. No it’s not ideal and it’s certainly not like cutting your teeth in the Great White North but the nature of the beast is rapidly changing and these new batch of pilots are entering the aviation field with a different skill set than many of us had. I feel lucky in more ways than one to have gone through the General Aviation side of things, but given the opportunity to be trained by the likes of Jazz and knowing what I know now of GA, I probably would choose to go the Jazz route.

[DEFCON]

"While I agree with the general sentiment expressed here, I think it is a bit overblown. Of course we would all like to have the most experienced and capable pilots sitting next to us on every flight but as someone here said "times are changing" and the reality of a shortfall of experienced flight crew in Canada is plainly evident. Nothing is going to change the fact (short of a global catastrophe that no one wants) that in terms of experience levels, cockpit gradients are going to rise significantly. This does not mean to say that a cadet program cannot be introduced safely into an airline."

Wouldn't AF 443 & the BUF Colgan Q4 crash qualify as 'catastrophes'? How many more can we afford?

If there's a global pilot shortage; why isn't there a corresponding increase in what a 'real' pilot's worth to a carrier?

If there's a global pilot shortage; perhaps there are too many flights and or ac need to be larger, but to find the answer to said shortage in pretend pilots….come on?

Why do professional aviators frequently seem to believe that nothing can or will go wrong that we can't handle, even if we’re off the FD?

AF 443 demonstrated and who’d of believed that in the absence of a ‘qualified aviator’, a tiny non-event type problem could actually result in the loss of the aircraft and all souls aboard? Both AF 443 & the Colgan crash demonstrated that even if someone qualified is present, a newbie's response to stimulus can result in their taking action contrary to common sense, airmanship, SOP's, approved procedure, and many other ‘things’ that are only gained through experience.

It’s also kind of a funny thing that a 50 year old experienced pilot can lose his medical to something that ‘may never’ present a problem, but placing a ‘Microsoft Flight Sim’ qualified cadet aboard is safe, sound, reasoned and a ‘genuine’ approach to dealing with a shortage of pilots; that itself being an industry generated problem???

The same might be said with respect to someone’s age?

[xxx]

Ummm, i have a bachelor of science , aviation diploma, military experience in a non aviation role, flown the north in a high performance aircraft into 3000 foot gravel strips. I have flown the CRJ and Dash all over the Jazz system, and I can tell you that this is not an entry level position.

There are numerous pilots slogging in the north waiting for an opportunity to progress. Now we have foreign pilots flying for charter companies

and now newbies getting on to Jazz. Unbelievable.

I do not care what kind of training program Jazz has or their background. At the very least , I would rather fly with an individual who has actually scared themselves. It is mandatory in this profession, and an airline seat is not the place to get it.

[Bobcaygeon]

Do AF 443 and Colgan @ Buffalo represent only "experience" issues? AF crashes on a pretty regular basis for a 1st world carrier (ie A340 in YYZ) and do you really think the 1500hr ATPL rule in the US would have prevented Colgan @ Buff? At least 100 major carriers use some type of "cadet" program without major accidents. How???

Both accidents could have been prevented with better training programs / culture and their company safety records reflect this. Look at the safety history of the airlines owned by Colgan's parent company (Pinnacle).

Experience might make up for this sometimes but not always. Look up the AC A330 incident in Zurich in 2003ish (I think). Two very senior desk pushers/training pilots in an A330 managed to scrape the tail on takeoff and almost stall it on approach (I didn't think a 330 could fly that slow) in the span of about a 30 minute flight.

An excellent training program can make up for a lot of (but not all) experience. There are a few Jazz destinations in BC that I would consider questonable for a low timer but Jazz doesn't have a means to eliminate that risk.

Mind you Jazz had no problem sending veteran yyz based dash guys (block holders) to YCG even though they had never ever operated/simulated in or near the mountains. Most just "booked off" and SMS'd it to migitate the risk. The company was "enlightened" by the union and smartened up and put the next LOFT scenario in Kelowna.

Jazz's crj hard landing in yyz involved a new hire FO with 100 hrs on type and highlighted a Jazz CRJ training program weakness. (Importance of TL @ idle in flare & bounced landing recovery) It occurred even though the crew member had "experience".

Canadian 703 & 704 companies with poor records demonstrate these training issues as well.

Overall I am not a fan of it (mostly my dislike for Seneca grads) but if done correctly in "baby steps" it can be acceptable.

[Guest]

Jazz's crj hard landing in yyz was during line indoc and highlighted a Jazz CRJ training program weakness. (Importance of TL @ idle in flare) It occurred even though the crew member had "experience".

That incident did not occur during line indoc.

[boestar]

Comair had their flying academy for years doing very similar to this. BA also trained their pilots from the ground up years ago.

[B75/76]

Comair had their flying academy for years doing very similar to this. BA also trained their pilots from the ground up years ago.

As did LH and other western airlines. I flew for Tyrolean in Austria and they had FOs joining on the DH8 as their first job. They did a good well overall. I have also flown with 'experienced' guys with a traditional Canadian background that did not adapt well to airline type ops.

Even in Canada in the early '70s airlines were hiring from the college programs directly.

Canadian aviation has been different than much of the rest of the world: our entry level jobs are often small a/c and operators. Elsewhere it is often starting at a regional level or even a mainline carrier because there is no pool of pilots that gained their experience

'up north'.

I have to ask, Bobcaygeon, why do you automatically dislike folks that have gone to Seneca?

[Spinnaker]

"Even in Canada in the early '70s airlines were hiring from the college programs directly."

I think TCA/Air Canada hired a number of them and the first introduction 'their' Herman Nelson was the name of the London Hotel bell boy....

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Unless Jazz introduces a special lower pay scale for no-time FO's, I don't see the point. There is a neverending supply of 1500-2500 hr pilots they could hire (2-5 yrs experience) that they could hire for the same price. All else being equal it only makes sense to go for the better qualified applicant.

Then again the advantage of hiring someone with no time, especially in light of the bleak upgrade prospects at Jazz, is that they will stick around for 5+ years with zero basis for complaint. Where are you going to go with 2500 hrs of FO time and no ATPL?

If I were a college grad of today I'd take my chance elsewhere.

[Bobcaygeon]

That incident did not occur during line indoc.

My apologies, he had recently completed line indoc and had 100 hrs on type.

[boestar]

Interesting. Those 1500-2000+ pilots are not applying for jobs. I guess they just arent available to Jazz because they want to jump right to the big leagues.

[DEFCON]

Bobcaygeon

Thanks for the response. For the most part, there's no argument on my part.

The AC 330 incident does make something of a statement with respect to experience; sitting at a desk makes for a 'rusty' pilot and when ego's added in, the net is about as bad as having very little real experience.

With respect to the AF & Colgan events; 1500 hrs is pretty funny too in that 1500 hrs TT doesn't necessarily equate with 'experience'. It's almost certainly better than 250 TT, but not an effective guarantee of anything meaningful?

I recall a time when 'experience' meant an applicant pilot required 5000 hrs TT of which a minimum was 2500 PIC & 2500 turbine to be eligible to apply for an F/O's job on an ac like the Q4? Would better qualifications have better served Colgan etc. I think it’s quite likely that events like Colgan & AF 443 wouldn’t have happened had experience been present allowing 300+ souls to continue with their lives. Profit anyone?

Yes; AC did hire a bunch pretty much right out of Seneca back in the late seventies, but 'most' had 1000 or more hrs PIC on twins such as the PA-31 series and then only served as 2nd Officers on 727's and the like for a dozen years or more before taking a flying seat. I acknowledge; there were a few exceptions to the rule.