Sign in to follow this  
LongTimer V

Wow we have come a long way

Recommended Posts

In the 1950's, my Dad bought a VW van. I don't know what they're called today. His highway mileage was 55 mpg.

Same type of vehicle today; same weight; better roads; better tires; better transmissions: 45 mpg.

Wow. THAT's progress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the 1950's, my Dad bought a VW van. I don't know what they're called today. His highway mileage was 55 mpg.

Same type of vehicle today; same weight; better roads; better tires; better transmissions: 45 mpg.

Wow. THAT's progress.

That's because your dad's van had (at best) a 50 HP engine in it. It's pretty hard to burn much fuel when zero to 60 only happens when you've fallen off a cliff (with a tailwind)! :eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Type_2

A dentist invented cotton candy? Awesome! :)

Now that's what I'd call planned obsolesence! :Grin-Nod:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the 1950's, my Dad bought a VW van. I don't know what they're called today. His highway mileage was 55 mpg.

Same type of vehicle today; same weight; better roads; better tires; better transmissions: 45 mpg.

Wow. THAT's progress.

Yeah? Which one would you rather be in for a long road trip? Or even worse, in a crash? Progress is not necessarily measured in "MPG".

Anyway, I found a website from some guy who owns a nice '71 VW van and it gives the weight as approximately 2900 lbs (depending on the specific model and fuel economy as 20 MPG (24 mpg Imp) while a new 2012 VW van weighs 4500 lbs and gets 36 MPG (30 mpg USG). I would guess that the drivability of the current model with 283 hp and 260 ft'lbs of torque is also slightly better than the older version with 60 hp and less than 90 ft/lbs torque. I realize that the '71 is not the specific van you were referring to but it's closer to the 50s model than it is to the current one.

http://www.ph.utexas.edu/~yue/VW/VWBus.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My POINT was that there hasn't been much improvement in internal combustion engines. Yes, they've become more complex and develop much more power per gallons of fuel. But the bottom line is: getting from A to B. There has been little change in that regard over last 60 years, IMO.

As far as falling off a cliff goes, that nearly happened when my folks took us around the Cabot Trail as kids. On the steep descent on Mount Smokey, the brakes failed. Close to the top.

They say it's a miracle I'm still here. Other folks use a different word sometimes... :icon_butt:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My POINT was that there hasn't been much improvement in internal combustion engines. Yes, they've become more complex and develop much more power per gallons of fuel. But the bottom line is: getting from A to B. There has been little change in that regard over last 60 years, IMO. As far as falling off a cliff goes, that nearly happened when my folks took us around the Cabot Trail as kids. On the steep descent on Mount Smokey, the brakes failed. Close to the top. They say it's a miracle I'm still here. Other folks use a different word sometimes... :icon_butt:

Sorry Moon, gotta disagree with you on this one. The multi-port fuel injection systems of today are simply amazing. Most of the loss or lack of mileage gain is a result of increased size and weight of vehicles. Airbags, crumple zones and basic crash survivability make today's cars much, much better than even 20 years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry Moon, gotta disagree with you on this one. The multi-port fuel injection systems of today are simply amazing. Most of the loss or lack of mileage gain is a result of increased size and weight of vehicles. Airbags, crumple zones and basic crash survivability make today's cars much, much better than even 20 years ago.

Indeed, Mav - I've driven 'old' cars all my life. In my teens and twenties, that meant 6-8 years old, with retirement at around the 10-year mark. You can just about double those numbers now. 100K miles was tons in 1970, 160K klicks is maybe a little over half-life today. Remember getting cars started back then? The tricks we all had with the pedal and choke (of course we'd torn away the 'automatic' one)? None of this get in, turn the key for 1 or 3 turns on the coldest morning, and you're running.

On mileage, Moon', your rear-view mirror is fogged over. I owned a few Volksies, both bug and van. I still get misty-eyed remembering them ("Volkswagen Maintainance for the Compleat Idiot" remains the standard by which I still measure such guidance material). The very best highway mileage I got was near 40, with a 1200cc bug. The most I ever coaxed out of the van was about 25, and that was the old split-window 1500cc, doing about 55mph. People I knew with the old 1200cc vans didn't do much better, they were going absolutely flat out to do 50-55.

That said, your overall point is valid. People do go on about how fast the technology is changing, but really it's nothing compared to the pace of change through about 1850-1950. We've been practically marching in place since then in comparison.

Cheers, IFG :b:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Airbags, crumple zones and basic crash survivability make today's cars much, much better than even 20 years ago."

I was a passenger in a smaller older car which became the recipient of a very low speed (5mph) glancing rear end kiss. The old Chrysler car I was in had a plastic covered bumper while the recent model 4X4 truck that ‘touched’ us had the latest and greatest in impact protection etc.

As it was, the truck's anti-skid system caused the crash. There was absolutely zero damage to the old beater, but the new truck needed $2500 worth of repairs?

From my pov; other than airbags and new steering wheel designs, most of the new technology is overkill. We pay considerably more to purchase a new vehicle today and will give up a whole lot more in maintenance and repairs over the life of the vehicle than you'll ever realize in gas savings or appreciate in safety enhancements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I very much doubt that the truck's anti-skid system caused the crash. More likely the driver's lack of understanding of how it works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't we beat the whole issue of "advanced safety systems on passenger vehicles" to death a few months ago? Yeah, 5% of the drivers out there can outperform the electronics in certain circumstances but the other 95% are served very well with the technology.

BTW, you do know that new vehicles are engineered to deform and take damage to protect the occupants from sudden deceleration, right? Crash a 60's vintage vehicle at 20 mph and you get very little damage - at the cost of injury to the passengers - which is preferable?

Edited by seeker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes Seeker, I do understand which is why I mentioned and see airbags and steering wheel columns as positive engineering safety enhancements? Most of the engineering changes to safety systems are either, over, or under-kill.

Let’s look at wheel brakes as an example of under-kill. For many years Ford produced a light truck known as the Bronco. The Bronco was built originally on a ¾ ton frame and employed the ¾ ton truck’s brake system until 1992. At that time, weight reduction programs necessitated the introduction of a lesser system, the ½ ton truck’s brake system.

As it was, the later model vehicle’s brakes were not heavy enough and could be downright dangerous going down-hill on hills such as those found along Superior’s north shore. One could probably expect to save 25 bucks on gas over the life of the vehicle because of the reduction in the weight of the vehicle brake system, but spend an extra 3K on brake overhauls instead?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems like Volkswagen didn't come a long way but resorted to fudging their numbers, so much of vaunted German Technology

Massive Volkswagen Recall of Dirty Polluters
New Canada-wide Class Action Launched in Court Today
VANCOUVER, Sept. 21, 2015 /CNW/ - Merchant Law Group LLP, with its ten offices across Canada, is launching national class action litigation against Volkswagen regarding the massive Volkswagen diesel vehicle emissions scandal.
VW had marketed its diesel-powered cars as being better for the environment. The EPA indicates the VW cars under investigation seemed to pass emissions tests, but in the real world, were actually emitting up to 40 times the national standard for nitrogen oxide, which is linked to asthma and lung illnesses.
A B.C. Supreme Court Class Action was filed today with the Court in Vancouver against Volkswagen, and similar lawsuits are being filed in the coming days by Merchant Law Group lawyers from Alberta, Ontario and Quebec, as part of this Canada-wide class action litigation.
In Canada, the affected diesel models include:
The VW Jetta — from 2009-15.
The VW Golf — from 2010-15.
The VW Beetle — from 2013-15.
The VW Passat — from 2012-15.
The VW Golf Wagon/Sportwagon — from 2009-15.
Volkswagen Canada has stopped sales of many of its diesel vehicles following revelations last week that VW had rigged emissions tests for approximately 500,000 diesel cars.
The stop-sale order came three days after the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) revealed that half a million diesel-powered VWs had been programmed to bypass emission controls, except during emissions tests.
"I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers and the public," Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn said in a weekend statement.
"Volkswagen vehicle owners who have spoken to our lawyers are furious. They paid a premium price intending to buy vehicles that were better for the environment and now find out their cars are among the dirtiest of polluters." said Tony Merchant, Q.C., the lawyer leading this class action.
A list of the affected vehicles is available at:
Any Canadians who own one of the affected vehicles from the above list may provide their contact information thru the same website.
For further information: For media seeking actuality or comment, please call Tony Merchant, Q.C. at 1-888-567-7777. For French media inquiries, please contact our Montréal office at 1-514-248-7777.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems like Volkswagen didn't come a long way but resorted to fudging their numbers, so much of vaunted German Technology

Massive Volkswagen Recall of Dirty Polluters
New Canada-wide Class Action Launched in Court Today
VANCOUVER, Sept. 21, 2015 /CNW/ - Merchant Law Group LLP, with its ten offices across Canada, is launching national class action litigation against Volkswagen regarding the massive Volkswagen diesel vehicle emissions scandal.
VW had marketed its diesel-powered cars as being better for the environment. The EPA indicates the VW cars under investigation seemed to pass emissions tests, but in the real world, were actually emitting up to 40 times the national standard for nitrogen oxide, which is linked to asthma and lung illnesses.
A B.C. Supreme Court Class Action was filed today with the Court in Vancouver against Volkswagen, and similar lawsuits are being filed in the coming days by Merchant Law Group lawyers from Alberta, Ontario and Quebec, as part of this Canada-wide class action litigation.
In Canada, the affected diesel models include:
The VW Jetta — from 2009-15.
The VW Golf — from 2010-15.
The VW Beetle — from 2013-15.
The VW Passat — from 2012-15.
The VW Golf Wagon/Sportwagon — from 2009-15.
Volkswagen Canada has stopped sales of many of its diesel vehicles following revelations last week that VW had rigged emissions tests for approximately 500,000 diesel cars.
The stop-sale order came three days after the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) revealed that half a million diesel-powered VWs had been programmed to bypass emission controls, except during emissions tests.
"I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers and the public," Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn said in a weekend statement.
"Volkswagen vehicle owners who have spoken to our lawyers are furious. They paid a premium price intending to buy vehicles that were better for the environment and now find out their cars are among the dirtiest of polluters." said Tony Merchant, Q.C., the lawyer leading this class action.
A list of the affected vehicles is available at:
Any Canadians who own one of the affected vehicles from the above list may provide their contact information thru the same website.
For further information: For media seeking actuality or comment, please call Tony Merchant, Q.C. at 1-888-567-7777. For French media inquiries, please contact our Montréal office at 1-514-248-7777.

This reminds me of standardized testing in school where teachers focus on teaching kids to pass standardized tests instead of educating kids.

The EPA is the administrator of standardized testing for vehicles. Automotive engineers have simply designed emissions software to conform to the test parameters.

Freakonomics 101. I wouldn't be surprised if this is widespread in the industry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wouldn't be surprised if this is widespread in the industry.

Wouldn't that be something - if other manufacturers were doing the same thing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Former CPAIR,

I'm just wondering how your head is indexed so as to see news one day and directly associate them to alomost 4 year old threads? To me, it's nothing short of amazing.... although a bit troubling! :blink::)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Former CPAIR,

I'm just wondering how your head is indexed so as to see news one day and directly associate them to alomost 4 year old threads? To me, it's nothing short of amazing.... although a bit troubling! :blink::)

He's Mr Google.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow!

Total numbers of vehicles globally jumped from 500,000 to 11,000,000!!!

Talk about corporate greed!

I guess they thought people were that stupid not to notice.

The most unfortunate thing about this, is that like the banking crisis, those who knew and approved of this scam will see no jail time.

Think of how much different things would be if executives whose titles started with a 'C' had to face 25 years in jail for this kind of willful activity?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Think of how much different things would be if executives whose titles started with a 'C' had to face 25 years in jail for this kind of willful activity?

You can trace the whole mess back to the concept of "limited liability."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_Liability_Act_1855

Before this piece of "brilliance" shareholders and principles in a company would have been held accountable. Just imagine the world we'd be living in if CEOs and investors were still held accountable for the actions of their company.

.....of course we'd have to build more jails, a lot more!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Former CPAIR,

I'm just wondering how your head is indexed so as to see news one day and directly associate them to alomost 4 year old threads? To me, it's nothing short of amazing.... although a bit troubling! :blink::)

No index in my head but the forum search engine, if asked the right question will guide you. :biggrin1:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this