Seeker Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Incredible! This will open a huuuge can of worms. I cannot believe some Westjetters apparently think they can start and run a second-class, B-scale operation and avoid the same problems every other company on the planet has encountered when trying to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Incredible! This will open a huuuge can of worms. I cannot believe some Westjetters apparently think they can start and run a second-class, B-scale operation and avoid the same problems every other company on the planet has encountered when trying to do so.It also opens a can of worms for AC people. How are you going to compete against that? At some point standing on principle can be suicidal to your career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 "It also opens a can of worms for AC people. How are you going to compete against that? At some point standing on principle can be suicidal to your career."You and your side has already won Dagger. Your principles are suicidal to any notion of a 'career' in aviation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrlupin Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So, Westjet employees are being asked to institutionalize second tier wages and benefits well below the high end of the regional airline industry is this country?It sounds to me that the race to the bottom is about over.AC employees always like to invoke the race to the bottom as a terrible, terrible thing they must fight, ergo the opposition of many to the AC discount airline. It's curious, and instructive, that a majority of WS employees may be of another opinion.A democratic process to decide whether or not it is OK to start an other division where employees will get lower wages and benefits. In this me, myself and I society, how could this not pass?I am always amazed at how people are willing to accept putting others at a lower wage when it does not affect them directly. I guess the devil will be in the details. As for the maintaining the corporate culture idea... I will be curious to see how they swing that. Jazz has removed it's second tier pay rates for AMEs. It didn't stick.As a point to ponder... If Westjet starts an international carrier, will it isolate the 737 operation from the international operation? Why would that be any different?As another point, this link http://books.google....2095%25&f=false shows that the original Westjet model, targeted wages at 95% of industry median wage. The Globe article mentions they are now targeting 80% of median wages. An interesting shift don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex 9A Guy Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 As another point, this link http://books.google....2095%25&f=false shows that the original Westjet model, targeted wages at 95% of industry median wage. The Globe article mentions they are now targeting 80% of median wages. An interesting shift don't you think?The main difference between then and now was in 1996 the base salary was waaaaaay below industry average, 40K for F/Os and 65K for Capts, this was closer to 50% industry average and was to be made up for by a significant option package to at least 95% industry average. This worked while the stock was increasing exponentially which has not been the case for the past number of years. The proposal for the new WestJet regional, without divulging confidential information, is a minimum of 80% industry average with the balance to 100% made up by ESPP and profit share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpy Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 What I love about this whole thread is that even after 17 years people still don't "get it". If you think with traditional thoughts you get legacy conclusions. If you think that 80% median with top ups as a starting point with an engaged management and a supportive pilot group you get non-traditional answers. We will not keep the regionals disenfranchised. When I look at the fact that Porter managed to get 240 pilots with no flow through and an unsupportive management I think this will be the place to be for a young pilot in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I'm told, WJ has been taking what amounts to, recently minted Dash FO's from Jazz for quite some time now for their 737 ops. So, how can they consider the regional op an apprenticeship?You're also suggesting legacy style thinking is dead, but the program being embarked upon is right out of the legacy playbook? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 For career planning and given a choice a young new pilot will be better off to take a job at Jazz or Porter or anyone other Westjet Regional since there is 4 times the chance of getting hired at Westjet mothership than someone already in the fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyline Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If my sources are right, Westjet regional will be Porter. Not only that, Canjet will have 5 - B757 for Air Transat work. This would leave AC low cost very difficult to work if its CR's "master plan". I should have a few doubles and cheer up. Any truth to these rumors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrlupin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If my sources are right, Westjet regional will be Porter. Not only that, Canjet will have 5 - B757 for Air Transat work. This would leave AC low cost very difficult to work if its CR's "master plan". I should have a few doubles and cheer up. Any truth to these rumors? If Beans' Porter rhetoric has substance, then one would imagine that Porter is slowly burning it's capital. Its cash position might be decreasing at a slower rate these days but unless the Racoon airline's strength is raising capital, simple math suggest that eventually, it will be needing funds. If the original equity holders want out, one could think that Westjet could get 24 Dash8-400 at a great price, complete with flight crews.Sure would get the operation going in a hurry. I wonder if The Teal carrier has the management resources to handle such a buy? Westjet has done a great job so far but they have kept everything simple. Handling a regional carrier the size of Porter would come with substantial difficulties... At least they have the cash in hand to handle any hiccups along the road... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If Westjet buys Porter would this Leave the Island dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 It would probably mean, AC would find themselves in a real pickle? When AC began ops at the Island, pax voted with their feet and came in ever increasing numbers. AC abandoned the island in an attempt to force pax back to YZ and Rapidair. Unfortunately for them, Porter filled the niche. Being WJ has a business first approach to ops, they may have seen the opportunity and are now poised to pound another pile of nails in AC's coffin?But then again, some 'investors' were impressed by Milton's unlocking of the value in AC?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Six Sigma Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 TPA has enjoyed a nice ride....at 'tz...now they just need to collect what is outstanding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 The rumour floating around is that Deluce wants 700 million for Porter, and on top of that Westjet would absorb his debt... which is also rumoured to be into the triple digit millions(200-300) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebean Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 The rumour floating around is that Deluce wants 700 million for Porter, and on top of that Westjet would absorb his debt... which is also rumoured to be into the triple digit millions(200-300)In the immortal words of Steven Tyler....Dream on....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 What do you mean? The rumour is BS or what Deluce wants is BS? Personally, I think it would be a huge mistake if WS bought Porter, even for a nickel, let alone what I'm hearing he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 What do you mean? The rumour is BS or what Deluce wants is BS? Personally, I think it would be a huge mistake if WS bought Porter, even for a nickel, let alone what I'm hearing he wants.Both. Porter thinks its worth a lot more than it actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 The chatter on this forum seems to have the two fleet concept as a done deal. Overheard conversation (Westjet Pilots) is not as positive. Guess the vote will tell the tale. I wonder if the margin Yes vs No will be published.\Interesting times...............................I've yet to hear anyone that is voting no. People have their questions (as did I) but operationally and strategically, the plan is solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I agree both, just reporting what I was told. Deluce has to be smoking something pretty strong to think he'll get that kind of money for a turboprop operation that doesn't(IMO) make money. And, I'm betting his debtload isn't that bad either, probably 'only' 100-200 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrlupin Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 With a little patience, I am sure the price can be negotiated. If Porter is operating at a loss, it is just a matter of time until it's at the end of it's capital. At that point you do not even need to negotiate with Porter. Instead you negotiate with the entity that financed the operation.The AvCanada web site has a thread on Porter unionising. I suspect that would be the bigger deal breaker for Westjet. I can not imagine the Westjet model to be ready for unions yet... lol They can test the water with larger executive class seats, regional aircrafts and in the future a long range aircrafts for international flying, but a union no.Éric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehighclub Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Rhetorical question: Can Westjet buy Jazz (or Chorus) and gradually get the whole network for himself ? That would be a double hit for AC Of course, i know nothing about the details in the CPA and Westjet surely has no interest in this kind of business BUT, what IF ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnaker Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Currently Jazz is the highest cost regional out in Canada. Why buy that one when others have far cheaper operating costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Isn't it a little difficult to suggest, Jazz is a 'regional' carrier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 Not difficult at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Not difficult but accuracy be damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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