Working in the Airline Industry

[deicer]

1. We work in weird shifts... Like prostitutes

2. They pay you to make the client happy... Like a prostitute

3. The client pays a lot of money, but your employer keeps almost every penny... Like a prostitute

4. You are rewarded for fulfilling the client's dreams... Like a prostitute

5. Your friends fall apart and you end up hanging out with people in the same profession as you... Like a prostitute

6.When you have to meet the client you always have to be perfectly groomed..... Like a prostitute

7. But when you go back home it seems like you are coming back from hell... Like a prostitute

8. The client always wants to pay less but expects incredible things from you... Like a prostitute

9. When people ask you about your Job, you have difficulties to explain it... Like a prostitute

10. Everyday when you wake up, you say: I'M NOT GOING TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE DOING THIS"..... Like a prostitute

REMARKS: The only difference is the prostitutes can take Christmas and New Year's Eve off and they actually DO make a lot of Money!

[Guest alkaid]

Last time I looked, AC folks were making all kinds of money compared to equivalent to much outside the industry, with union protected ground crew doing plenty of relaxing compared to many jobs. Perhaps if attitude was similar to when interviewed, no beatings would be required(see avatar). Sometimes it seems the better some have it, the more they complain.

[deicer]

Nice to see you advocating the race to the bottom. Instead of taking away the hard earned rights that those before you fought for, why don't you fight for them yourself?

Happy Thanksgiving!

Iceman

[Guest]

Last time I looked, AC folks were making all kinds of money compared to equivalent to much outside the industry, with union protected ground crew doing plenty of relaxing compared to many jobs. Perhaps if attitude was similar to when interviewed, no beatings would be required(see avatar). Sometimes it seems the better some have it, the more they complain.

You may want to rethink that statement, those of us in the AC maintenance department are not even close to what others doing the same job get paid!!!!

[Guest alkaid]

You may want to rethink that statement, those of us in the AC maintenance department are not even close to what others doing the same job get paid!!!!

Could be true. Seeing as I said " AC folks were making all kinds of money compared to equivalent to much outside the industry", Perhaps you could post the typical wages of AC maintenance and benefits compared to the equivalent car maintenance folks.

[cp fa]

Troll.

[Guest]

Could be true. Seeing as I said " AC folks were making all kinds of money compared to equivalent to much outside the industry", Perhaps you could post the typical wages of AC maintenance and benefits compared to the equivalent car maintenance folks.

25 years ago I was in the auto industry and joined aviation, this was the best paying trade especially being at AC, 25 years later, hind sightI should have stayed in the Automotive industry, their wages and benefits far exceed the aviation industry, for that matter so do the majority of other trades!If I was a younger man, I would have left this industry, but I only have a few years left before I retire so I am kind of stuck.

[Guest]

Just curious, when you talk about working in the auto industry, are you talking about jobs in Ontario at the manufacturing plants or local jobs across Canada at auto dealerships? Reason I ask is that I found the following data and I am curious as to how it compares with say the Salary of an AME at AC:

data link

Popular Industries

Hourly Rate

Auto/Car DealershipC$17.04 - C$26.95Electrical & Mechanical RepairC$16.41 - C$25.12Automobiles / CarsC$17.51 - C$28.54Automotive Systems and ComponentsC$17.26 - C$26.11Automotive EnginesC$15.70 - C$24.47Popular Industries

Hourly Rate

Commercial Aviation / AirlineC$17.02 - C$26.42Aircraft Maintenance ServicesC$17.02 - C$25.45Aerospace ManufacturingC$17.42 - C$26.62Aerospace and DefenseC$17.37 - C$26.67TransportationC$16.74 - C$25.36

Hi Malcolm,

I was talking about auto repair. I started my apprenticeship at a dealership and have a few friends who are still in it. They make a far better wage than I do. And if you look at heavy equipment repair, these folks are making very good money.

Looking at the data you supplied, all I can say is that they took the average of every sector. If you go to the AIRLINE, all majors pay better that what your link shows as do major dealerships. As a 25 year AME with multiple endorsements, I make in the low 30's per hour or a base of 68k TransAt and others make far more.I believe TransAt is at 82k now

[Spinnaker]

I have a friend who is a mechanic fixing cars for Canadian Tire, he regularly makes 100K per year and has fantastic benefits. He worked at BMW before that making 80K... so you may want to rethink comparators... if there are any.

EDIT to add... this same guy worked in Ground Service Equipment for AC up until 8 years ago

I guess he went were the money was.

[Guest alkaid]

Don't forget to include pensions in what seems to have come down to AC vs Canadian Tire pay. And of course the AC maintenance guys have a significant amount of skill(or perhaps a huge amount of skills required) compared to the baggage handler/de-icing background skills required.

[Spinnaker]

Really surprised that he can make 100G a year working for Canadian tire. A friend was a manager in the auto department at a local Canadian Tire and he never came close to that. The same site I quoted before shows the following for Canadian Tire:

Hourly Rate Automotive Service Technician

Canadian Tire CorporationC$10.18 - C$28.28Ford Motor CompanyC$12.72 - C$33.41

Good to hear that he is doing so well.

I asked the same and said he gets paid by 'the job'. So if 3 hours is what it takes him to do a water pump and he's done in 2, then he stays ahead of the game. I guess he can usually get paid 12 hours in an 8 hour day. I helped him change a clutch in my truck in a few hours but it only cost me a pizza and beer though.

[Maverick]

Could be true. Seeing as I said " AC folks were making all kinds of money compared to equivalent to much outside the industry", Perhaps you could post the typical wages of AC maintenance and benefits compared to the equivalent car maintenance folks.

Not AC, but before shooting ones mouth off you should do a little research. The car guys are making great money! Don't have to work nights either, ever.

I've done both professionally, I like airplanes, that's my vice. My personal crystal ball would have had me staying automotive tech if I could have a do-over.

[cp fa]

I'm pretty sure my car mechanic has never missed a Christmas with his family either.

So if we're going to compare AMEs to car mechanics, I guess we should be comparing pilots to bus drivers, flight attendants to waitresses, and of course, deicer should be paid the same as a car wash guy.

Like I said, troll.

[Guest alkaid]

Like I said, troll.

I guess I was wrong. I didn't realize that all these Canadian Tire mechanics were making 100,000 per year. I suppose other comparable workers are doing that well versus somewhat equivalent aviation jobs.

Next time De-Icer indirectly suggests that you are a prostitute equivalent, I will just agree with him.

[Spinnaker]

My plumber makes a 100K per year too (I'm in to him for 2K of that this year).

Both the plumber and deicer have to know about 'fluids', but I'm not sure my plumber can kill as many people by screwing it up.

Perhaps Deicer was just posting some humor... I'll call my plumber for you if you need a blockage removed.

[Mitch Cronin]

Do I get any points for staying out of this one?

[Guest]

My plumber makes a 100K per year too (I'm in to him for 2K of that this year).

Both the plumber and deicer have to know about 'fluids', but I'm not sure my plumber can kill as many people by screwing it up.

Perhaps Deicer was just posting some humor... I'll call my plumber for you if you need a blockage removed.

Electricians make well over 100k also. A bus company out west recently had an advertisement for mechanics starting at 37/hr.

The AME wage at AC stinks, it took me about 8 years of schooling plus apprentice time as well as exams to complete my AME, it took me 4 years for my B'eng but we are looked down on as grease monkeys by management.Or as one Robert A Milton once said to me, "you are nothing but an expense"

[Guest]

Do I get any points for staying out of this one?

This is where you should be chiming in Mitch!!!!!

[Guest]

Don't forget to include pensions in what seems to have come down to AC vs Canadian Tire pay. And of course the AC maintenance guys have a significant amount of skill(or perhaps a huge amount of skills required) compared to the baggage handler/de-icing background skills required.

Do not forget that with this pension, I contribute $4000 a year from my pay so my 68k is knocked down to 64k.(yea, I know, I get it later on in retirement)

[Mitch Cronin]

This is where you should be chiming in Mitch!!!!!

I've said my piece Rob... In the comparison game it quickly gets to someone getting indignant over who's compared with whom... eventually someone mentions ball players or actors or something stupid and no relative ground can be had.

We're paid peanuts for what we do, and we're treated like dog poop. ...everyone here, and everyone in management knows it. The rest is up to our negotiators.

[CanadaEH]

All employee groups at all airlines should push to find comparators outside of the aviation industry to get a true representation of compensation for similar jobs. I know WestJet does that for some employee groups and the pay ends up being higher.

[mrlupin]

I do not know where you folks find all these rich mechanics. I am at a lost to find anyone I know who works in the automobile/heavy equipment repair industry and makes a higher "normal" wage then I do. My brother is a car mechanic, he has worked for GM, Ford, Holden and at no time was he making more then 60 000$. I have friends working heavy equipment maintenance, they make roughly 30$/hour, with a defined benefit PP. If their annual salary ever gets close to 80 G, It means they spent more time at work... way more time...

Robert, if AC could pay you 82G and forgo your pension plan, I am sure they would be all over it. So be careful what you wish for. Most of the senior AC staff in maintenance depends 100% on the pension plan (no other investments or revenue source)and would be in sad shape without it. If you really want to compare, you need to look at total compensation, benefits,pension and salary. Otherwise, it's apples and oranges.

[Guest]

I do not know where you folks find all these rich mechanics. I am at a lost to find anyone I know who works in the automobile/heavy equipment repair industry and makes a higher "normal" wage then I do. My brother is a car mechanic, he has worked for GM, Ford, Holden and at no time was he making more then 60 000$. I have friends working heavy equipment maintenance, they make roughly 30$/hour, with a defined benefit PP. If their annual salary ever gets close to 80 G, It means they spent more time at work... way more time...

Robert, if AC could pay you 82G and forgo your pension plan, I am sure they would be all over it. So be careful what you wish for. Most of the senior AC staff in maintenance depends 100% on the pension plan (no other investments or revenue source)and would be in sad shape without it. If you really want to compare, you need to look at total compensation, benefits,pension and salary. Otherwise, it's apples and oranges.

Eric,at present AC is having a very difficult time finding bodies, YVR,YYC,YYZ and I believe YEG are hiring off the street. The reason for this difficulty, lack of available bodies as the schools are not producing as they used to, second, those that do come out out of the schools tend to stay away from AC for two reasons,one being the pay stinks and the younger ones are going where the money is, and two is AC reputation of being a dung pit where you are treated like garbage and you will spend the next 15 years working Mids, oh and don't forget, you will be second to AVEOS if and when the split happens!

FYI, in the recent dealings with the VP of maintenance, he has conceded that the wages are well behind and need to rise but then inserted some smart arse remark about who we are tied in with.

[mrlupin]

Eric,at present AC is having a very difficult time finding bodies, YVR,YYC,YYZ and I believe YEG are hiring off the street. The reason for this difficulty, lack of available bodies as the schools are not producing as they used to, second, those that do come out out of the schools tend to stay away from AC for two reasons,one being the pay stinks and the younger ones are going where the money is, and two is AC reputation of being a dung pit where you are treated like garbage and you will spend the next 15 years working Mids, oh and don't forget, you will be second to AVEOS if and when the split happens!

FYI, in the recent dealings with the VP of maintenance, he has conceded that the wages are well behind and need to rise but then inserted some smart arse remark about who we are tied in with.

Afternoon Robert,

I do not know where you are getting your info about YVR,YYZ, YEG and YYC, YUL seems to be doing fine with recruiting. I do not know about the other bases. Since no one seems to be hiring at the moment (all the while Bombardier has many AMEs on the street and ExcelTech having closed doors), the places to go and work are few and far between.

The point behind my post was to point out that when people compare salaries, they tend to exclude many benefits such as pensions and marginal/fringe benefits. The tendency is also to look at the exception instead of the norm, ie: my friend works on heavy equipment and made 140 G last year! While omitting the fact that the said friend, lives out of a trailer in Fort MacMurray. (I know you didn't use that example, but it's an easy illustration). If you want to compare, you need to look at total compensation. Benefits, pension and salary need to be included in any comparison if you want it to be credible.

Personally, I'd trade in this pension plan for the RRSP matching scheme most of our competitors are using if I could get the 82 G a year (which is concrete money I can spend or invest) instead of being forced to invest into a pension plan that is likely to be insolvent by the time I need it. I am somewhat of a pessimist about the present economy. I understand that much of the senior staff loves the defined benefit plan and I can understand why. I just think that were it not for this pension plan, we would be getting a much richer salary.

As far as the AC pay stinks comment, well look around. What other aviation job can you get in Ottawa (as an AME) with your salary? First Air? Canadian Aviation Maintenance? The survey companies (Fugro and Sanders Geophysics if memory serves me right but again the field work)? Innotech? Ottawa flying club? the only place that might have a salary near yours is likely to be Transport Canada or Westjet if they have personnel in YOW. So in a way, you are getting what the Ottawa market will bear to pay.

If 400 AME were to leave AC in YYZ to go to Porter (lol), AC would instantly be forced to hike wages... but that is not likely to happen, since salary isn't likely to be better at Porter and the golden pension (or was that noose) keeps AC employees from moving to seek the better opportunities that you speak of. Also of note, where did all the SkyService employees go?

Éric

[Guest]

Afternoon Robert,

I do not know where you are getting your info about YVR,YYZ, YEG and YYC, YUL seems to be doing fine with recruiting. I do not know about the other bases. Since no one seems to be hiring at the moment (all the while Bombardier has many AMEs on the street and ExcelTech having closed doors), the places to go and work are few and far between.

The point behind my post was to point out that when people compare salaries, they tend to exclude many benefits such as pensions and marginal/fringe benefits. The tendency is also to look at the exception instead of the norm, ie: my friend works on heavy equipment and made 140 G last year! While omitting the fact that the said friend, lives out of a trailer in Fort MacMurray. (I know you didn't use that example, but it's an easy illustration). If you want to compare, you need to look at total compensation. Benefits, pension and salary need to be included in any comparison if you want it to be credible.

Personally, I'd trade in this pension plan for the RRSP matching scheme most of our competitors are using if I could get the 82 G a year (which is concrete money I can spend or invest) instead of being forced to invest into a pension plan that is likely to be insolvent by the time I need it. I am somewhat of a pessimist about the present economy. I understand that much of the senior staff loves the defined benefit plan and I can understand why. I just think that were it not for this pension plan, we would be getting a much richer salary.

As far as the AC pay stinks comment, well look around. What other aviation job can you get in Ottawa (as an AME) with your salary? First Air? Canadian Aviation Maintenance? The survey companies (Fugro and Sanders Geophysics if memory serves me right but again the field work)? Innotech? Ottawa flying club? the only place that might have a salary near yours is likely to be Transport Canada or Westjet if they have personnel in YOW. So in a way, you are getting what the Ottawa market will bear to pay.

If 400 AME were to leave AC in YYZ to go to Porter (lol), AC would instantly be forced to hike wages... but that is not likely to happen, since salary isn't likely to be better at Porter and the golden pension (or was that noose) keeps AC employees from moving to seek the better opportunities that you speak of. Also of note, where did all the SkyService employees go?

Éric

Eric,

you need to look beyond YUL. YYZ is the hub and they are having a difficult time finding people, the avionics section was down a number of people for quite a long time, they have just gotten back up to a reasonable level, but with the coming new year comes more attrition, coupled with the 777 checks now in YYZ. The recall lists have long been exhausted and the transfer list are about to be the same and it has been conceded that there will not be enough bodies and they will be going to the street. YVR is hiring off the street as is YYC and I believe YWG. YEG is sending in people daily to Saskatchewan to support the operation there. Here in YOW they are looking for 3, they had people accept then back away as soon as they discovered the AVEOS split.

In regards to wages, First Air leads are making in the close to mid 40's an hour and they are hiring, FYI, late 2008, Bearskin AME's were making 50 cents an hour less than we at AC, since then they have had 2 years at 3% each so math dictates they are now making more per hour than we are. Here in YOW, the charters are paying anywhere from 37 to 40 per hour for AME's, a few of the oil companies here are paying more than AC as is TC.

AC management has its head so far up its backside that it thinks people are lining up to get in, they are delusional, this company is in deep doo doo and when the split finally does happen, they will be left with an aging workforce as the majority of the juniors will be seconded to AVEOS. With AC's wage being what it is, how will you attract the bodies?????????????(aside from YUL)

You have been advocating a DC plan for a while now and in all reality, you may get your wish in a few years as I see it coming, but how many DC plans are doing well at the moment with the current climate, more than likely none.