Sky Regional to YTZ for AC

[boestar]

This has ZERO effect on the Jazz CPA with AC. SR can fly to their hearts content from YTZ. Jazz block hours are increasing by 5% in the upcomming season 2010/2011.

Jazz flying increases and another carrier enters the market. Sounds win win.

Jazz is NOT the only CPA operator for Air Canada. Air Georgian is another that flies for AC with smaller airframes.

yes SR can do it cheaper......for now. Eventually their costs will escalate as they grow and will become cost prohibitive for AC to maintain. Jazz is aware that a startup can do it cheaper but is it maintainable?

Jazz has a contract that is good until 2020 under the latest renegotiation. hours guarantees are in place so Jazz has nothing to worry about so long as the service levels are maintained to the correct levels. After 2020 then is could be anyones game as a new RFP will go out for the flying. right now there are no other capable players in town.

[MD2]

Your concerns are reasonable, but I think you have to ask yourself, who is leading the race to the bottom?

1. Is it non-union carriers who have lower costs, not entirely on wages but on total compensation? AC has a pension regime, that costs a bundle to keep adequately funded. What about those airlines that have lesser pension regimes (or none at all), lesser supplemental medical plans, etc.?

2. Is it startup carriers burning through investor money to try to establish themselves (at your expense)? If they have discovered a free market formula to operate profitably, than so be it. But what if their claims of profitability are bogus, and that the competitive impact on you is really a form of unfair competition because it is not sustainable?

...If the lynx gobbles the raccoon, so be it. Maybe the raccoon should have been more carefully about pissing away its millions.

When you speak from a high moral/economical ground, I feel obliged to remind you: AC has not made a real dime in a long time. AC has been the cause of many airline bankruptcies in Canada. AC has demonstrated little corporate ethics even to its own employees. So please forgo the cloak'n dagger talk and speak about the facts.

1. Do not contribute your managers' mismanagement unto others. Do not speak about race to the bottom in light of recent pay cuts handed out by AC with no clauses for salary recuperation.

2. Do not lecture about burning cash and lack of profitability when in fact there have been times when people could actually make money if they waved aeroplan and the soggy sandwich on their flight to Ottawa!

How long do you expect to continue this cop-out and feed nonsense to the troops, cut their wages, threaten their pensions, and sell their flying to the lowest bidder by "wild raccoons", or "baby eaters from the West" scare tactics instead of organizing your own affairs? Since you like metaphors, in a contract which is like a marriage, how long are you going to hide your ring whenever you see another (wo)man and try to "get into bed" with them, instead of going to your own spouse who seems to be happy to have you as a spouse?!

[Seeker]

When you speak from a high moral/economical ground, I feel obliged to remind you: AC has not made a real dime in a long time. AC has been the cause of many airline bankruptcies in Canada. AC has demonstrated little corporate ethics even to its own employees. So please forgo the cloak'n dagger talk and speak about the facts.

1. Do not contribute your managers' mismanagement unto others. Do not speak about race to the bottom in light of recent pay cuts handed out by AC with no clauses for salary recuperation.

2. Do not lecture about burning cash and lack of profitability when in fact there have been times when people could actually make money if they waved aeroplan and the soggy sandwich on their flight to Ottawa!

How long do you expect to continue this cop-out and feed nonsense to the troops, cut their wages, threaten their pensions, and sell their flying to the lowest bidder by "wild raccoons", or "baby eaters from the West" scare tactics instead of organizing your own affairs? Since you like metaphors, in a contract which is like a marriage, how long are you going to hide your ring whenever you see another (wo)man and try to "get into bed" with them, instead of going to your own spouse who seems to be happy to have you as a spouse?!

Incredible, you write this and you're telling others that they should get an education. D- is your grade, re-write it with all corrections made and get it back to me by Friday.

[deicer]

Seeker

I normally wouldn't want to get involved in a urinary discourse such as this with you and MD2, however,,,

He is right, imho.

Iceman

[Seeker]

Seeker

I normally wouldn't want to get involved in a urinary discourse such as this with you and MD2, however,,,

He is right, imho.

Iceman

He's right about what? I can barely understand what he's trying to say. If you can translate it maybe I could try to reply.

[deicer]

His commentary on how the airline is run is pretty close to the mark. If you can't see it, then you shouldn't comment on it.

Iceman

[Seeker]

His commentary on how the airline is run is pretty close to the mark. If you can't see it, then you shouldn't comment on it.

Iceman

Well, what he wrote is such a mess that it's hard to make any sense of it - that's my comment.

Apparently, according to MD2, Air Canada employees shouldn't comment on Porter not being able to operate profitably when Air Canada itself hasn't made a profit. The problem with this is that Porter is one of the reasons why Air Canada hasn't made a profit - you see, it's circular. He tries to make the point that Air Canada hasn't acted ethically because it has forced pay cuts onto it's employees but one of the reasons for this is Porter, also circular. MD2 thinks Air Canada should just leave Porter alone and stop competing with them and then everything would be fine. Well, sure, everything would be fine - for Porter. Does it make any sense that Air Canada should do that? My impression, just my impression - so don't sue me, is that he knows now and knew from the beginning that the whole thing is a house-of-cards. The "plan" was to start up a flashy new airline, hammer out some good loads and reasonable numbers before the other airlines could respond and then unload the whole impending trainwreck in an IPO and pocket the cash - and he's lecturing us about ethics? Furthermore he's using Jetsgo as an example of a company that was done wrong, in an ethical sense, by Air Canada? Jetsgo? There's not much sense in continuing any discussion with a person who is so far out of touch with reality.

[Mr Sparkle]

Well, what he wrote is such a mess that it's hard to make any sense of it - that's my comment.

Apparently, according to MD2, Air Canada employees shouldn't comment on Porter not being able to operate profitably when Air Canada itself hasn't made a profit. The problem with this is that Porter is one of the reasons why Air Canada hasn't made a profit - you see, it's circular. He tries to make the point that Air Canada hasn't acted ethically because it has forced pay cuts onto it's employees but one of the reasons for this is Porter, also circular. MD2 thinks Air Canada should just leave Porter alone and stop competing with them and then everything would be fine. Well, sure, everything would be fine - for Porter. Does it make any sense that Air Canada should do that? My impression, just my impression - so don't sue me, is that he knows now and knew from the beginning that the whole thing is a house-of-cards. The "plan" was to start up a flashy new airline, hammer out some good loads and reasonable numbers before the other airlines could respond and then unload the whole impending trainwreck in an IPO and pocket the cash - and he's lecturing us about ethics? Furthermore he's using Jetsgo as an example of a company that was done wrong, in an ethical sense, by Air Canada? Jetsgo? There's not much sense in continuing any discussion with a person who is so far out of touch with reality.

Yawn..

[MD2]

Apparently, according to MD2, Air Canada employees shouldn't comment on Porter not being able to operate profitably when Air Canada itself hasn't made a profit. The problem with this is that Porter is one of the reasons why Air Canada hasn't made a profit - you see, it's circular.

So why is it that AC management that are responsible for its mismanagement, denigrate other airlines lack of profitability to offer justification for their own incompetence, when in fact there is none. Porter could also say its inconsistent performance is due to Air Canada's predatory pricing that make it difficult to improve yield for which they would have a case as I explained before. There were times when one could actually get a $5 refund for flying AC to Ottawa if they were to waive the aeroplan points and the soggy sandwich.

He tries to make the point that Air Canada hasn't acted ethically because it has forced pay cuts onto it's employees but one of the reasons for this is Porter, also circular.

seeker, you disappoint me dear. You either don't work for AC or you choose to bury your head in the sand. The pay cuts/concessions came well before Porter came into being, with no intention, plans or a clause for salary recuperation. How can you condone this?

MD2 thinks Air Canada should just leave Porter alone and stop competing with them and then everything would be fine. Well, sure, everything would be fine - for Porter. Does it make any sense that Air Canada should do that?

No he is saying that Air Canada become worthy of the name of a national carrier and stop chasing every little airline that ever came into being. Become an airline with a strong culture and customer service that people want to fly.

My impression, just my impression - so don't sue me, is that he knows now and knew from the beginning that the whole thing is a house-of-cards. The "plan" was to start up a flashy new airline, hammer out some good loads and reasonable numbers before the other airlines could respond and then unload the whole impending trainwreck in an IPO and pocket the cash - and he's lecturing us about ethics?

Your impression/wishful thinking is very wrong. All indications are that Porter is well-financed; its brand is getting stronger, people like it and is headed to be around for a very long time.

Furthermore he's using Jetsgo as an example of a company that was done wrong, in an ethical sense, by Air Canada? Jetsgo? There's not much sense in continuing any discussion with a person who is so far out of touch with reality.

How about Canadian, Canada 3000, Vista Jet, Roots Air and a multitude of other airlines that Air Canada sideswiped and in the process incurred a mammoth debt itself? Air Canada's reckless corporate behaviour is at the heart of these problems, not the economy, not competition, not its employees, not the weather, not the rain, not the moon, etc, and its customers, its employees, or government agencies will compel it to change or cease to exist. Of this eventuality, there could be little doubt. What sayest thou, O thou eloquent one?!

[Thebean]

[Seeker]

MD2;

Look I'm not going to run down the list of every Canadian airline that failed in the last 30 years and try to justify why it's not Air Canada's fault. Some of them were obviously destined for failure by being underfunded or by having an overly optimistic business plan and a few of the others probably were pushed over the edge by Air Canada but so what? That's what business is all about - spend some time looking at all the retail brands that have disappeared over the last couple of decades, are you crying the blues for the demise of Woolworth's or Eaton's? Would Canada really be a better place if we had a little Vistajet flying around? God knows we're better off without Jetsgo so I don't feel bad about that one (no offense to any hard-working ex-Jetsgo people).

Yes, I realize the CCAA pay cuts came before Porter began flying; in your post you said "recent" pay cuts and since the rest of it was so confused I thought maybe you were referring to the fact that in the last negotiations we were unable to get a pay raise. My point was that perhaps part of the reason we were unable to regain some of what we lost in CCAA was due to Porter.

Why doesn't Air Canada leave the little airlines alone? Well, little airlines become big airlines. The margins are thin, as you know, and competition is part of the game. Why don't you send me your bankcard and give me access to your account - I'll just take $10/day (for now,maybe next year I'll take more). It's such a small amount you won't even notice it. Same thing, a small airline comes in a takes a little bit each day, add it all up and it becomes significant. You comment about "being an airline that people want to fly" is ridiculous - have you seen our loads lately?

Porter's going to be around for a long time? We'll see won't we, personally I wouldn't bet on it. This means that I won't be buying any shares if/when the IPO happens.

Just a little disclaimer here since I tend to get reamed for coming across as insensitive: I wish for success on a personal level for the employees of every aviation endeavor.

[MD2]

...Yes, I realize the CCAA pay cuts came before Porter began flying; in your post you said "recent" pay cuts and since the rest of it was so confused I thought maybe you were referring to the fact that in the last negotiations we were unable to get a pay raise. My point was that perhaps part of the reason we were unable to regain some of what we lost in CCAA was due to Porter...

seeker, I hope you are not fooled again by management's tactics that "raccoons" and "baby-eaters from the West" are stealing our passengers and money and actually "seek" a fair pay increase. As you even said, the loads are good enough and as a shareholder I do give you my blessing.

...Any idea when Porter will provide us with proof that the hemmoraging of cash has stopped?

Who is the "us" in your question? You and me? Members of this forum? Members of the public? Westjet "owners"?, or "independent" analysts? I mean no disrespect but am genuinely curious to know how can you be an "analyst" as you indicated and clearly be so close an airline? Is this normal practice?

[FA@AC]

seeker, I hope you are not fooled again by management's tactics that "raccoons" and "baby-eaters from the West" are stealing our passengers and money and actually "seek" a fair pay increase.

Perhaps you'd be good enough to post full details of the pay scale, benefits, pension plan, and the general terms and conditions under which the FAs at Porter work in order that I can offer an opinion on whether they too should seek improvements.

[MD2]

Perhaps you'd be good enough to post full details of the pay scale, benefits, pension plan, and the general terms and conditions under which the FAs at Porter work in order that I can offer an opinion on whether they too should seek improvements.

Why, are you a shareholder in Porter as I am in Air Canada? My message was for the pilots who have a long term vested interest, plus, you should be focused on helping yourself.

[FA@AC]

you should be focused on helping yourself.

I am, thank you, and while AC hasn't always had the best of relationships with its employees, my view is that AC provides very good employment. I was only wondering if the same could be said of Porter, as I honestly have no idea.

[J.O.]

MD2 - our nation's politicians should take lessons from you on how to deny and deflect. You've got it down to an art.

[Briler]

Says MD2:

"Your impression/wishful thinking is very wrong. All indications are that Porter is well-financed; its brand is getting stronger, people like it and is headed to be around for a very long time."

"All indications???"

Based on the financials released by Porter as of March 31, 2010 in its failed IPO, it's the exact opposite:

• Porter’s load factor (percentage of seats filled) dropped in Q1 2010 to 47% from 50.2 % in Q4 2009. The Q1 load factor dropped slightly below the total 2009 figure of 47.9%. Still flying with more than half its seats empty. [improved slightly lately, but at what cost? Lower fares might put a few more people in seats, but do they add to the bottom line? Porter is silent]
  
• Working capital deficit ($11,846,000 as of December 31, 2009) deteriorated to $33,467,000 by March 31, 2010.
• Restricted cash ( money held by credit card companies as security for unused ticket purchases, should they have to be refunded) jumped from $12,256,000 at December 31, 2009 to $17,581,000 at March 31, 2010
• Unrestricted cash fell by $10,732,000 to $9,179,000 at March 31, 2010 – enough for about two weeks’ expenses (monthly expenses are now almost $18 million).
• Accounts payable rose to almost $28 million from $24 million at December 31, 2009. Given spending of $14 million per month (excluding salaries) in Q1 2010, suppliers are waiting about two months to be paid. How patient will they continue to be?

With all the discounting and flight cancellations recently, can it have turned around much since then?

[CanadaEH]

Brian, you're opposed to flights out of YTZ - is that correct?

If so, what do you think about AC (Sky Regional) launching flights?

[Briler]

Obviously, with the failure of its IPO, Porter managed to find some private source of money to keep operating a little longer.

But Porter is canceling flights, and discounting fares, to improve its passenger load factors, but that can't be a viable way to get out of the financial box it's in.

Worse, there are a number of covenants on their loans that are already violated, or soon will be, if its financial condition is anywhere near what was disclosed to March 31.

While CommunityAIR would finally love to win this by actually getting the Tripartite Agreement constraints placed on the airport by the City back in the 1980s enforced,as all the remaining the Toronto mayoralty candidates are now promising to do, we won't mind if Porter fails because it couldn't sell enough tickets at a price high enough to be viable.

What its failure would provide is an opportunity to revisit the whole idea of a commercial operation out of the Island Airport. Hard to argue against when two previous attempts to make the Island Airport viable - City Express, and then Air Ontario, failed. Porter certainly looks like it's next.

As Air Canada has abandoned the Island Airport once before, it's likely it would do so once again, once it has ridded itself of pesky Porter - for the same reasons - it is inefficient to operate out of two locations when one will do: the market served by the Island Airport will use Pearson if the alternative isn't available, particularly with the forthcoming rail link.

Of course, other carriers could jump in - we'd work hard to make that as unattractive as possible.

We've experienced the damage Island Airport expansion has done to the Toronto waterfront and its communities, and is continuing to do. And the political support that Porter has been able to muster will surely dissipate once Porter's no longer around, and politicians realize there's an opportunity to fix the mess they've allowed to be created.

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[chockalicious]

Brian

Can you quantify what actual damage has been done to the way of life for people in YYZ on this? In looking at your website there is a bunch of scare tactics but nothing concrete?

Thanks,

[MD2]

Brian jong Il;

What's your point? That Porter is canceling flights? That its financial performance is poor and soon it will fail? Great for you folks, isn't that what you want? I have always said that I like their business plan, I like their product and service, and when and if they go public, I will invest a modest few thousand dollars in it. Why do you care about my investment?

But please, stop the nonsense about noise pollution. You are talking to avaition savvy people here, they know that even from the docks you can't hear the Q400 take-off. Also stop the waterfront complaint. After 8 years of socialist rule in city hall, it seems that Porter and TPA have made the only improvments to the waterfront. So what are we talking about here? Please stop being "AGAINST" things and start being "FOR" something. Life is too short to be defined in being "ANTI" anything, however "evil" you perceive it to be!

[inchman]

Brian jong Il;

...

But please, stop the nonsense about noise pollution. You are talking to avaition savvy people here, they know that even from the docks you can't hear the Q400 take-off. Also stop the waterfront complaint. After 8 years of socialist rule in city hall, it seems that Porter and TPA have made the only improvments to the waterfront. So what are we talking about here? Please stop being "AGAINST" things and start being "FOR" something. Life is too short to be defined in being "ANTI" anything, however "evil" you perceive it to be!

I hate to do so, but I gotta agree with MD2 here. There has been a lot more things done to damage the waterfront on the NORTH side of the channel than on the south. It is literally a forest of condos and, it's often difficult to even see the lake from the Gardiner or Lakeshore Blvd anymore. At least in Chicago, where they got rid of Meigs Field, they were consistent and provided true parkland along the full lakeshore rather than selling out to developers.

[MD2]

MD2 - our nation's politicians should take lessons from you on how to deny and deflect. You've got it down to an art.

What's the point of this comment? I wish you well in your next negotiations to get a "fair" settlement and certainly they should have left a clause in there for salary recuperation and/or giving a stake to the pilots in the form of stocks and options, then you ridicule my comment? Ok fine, ask for less and give concessions, happy now?! I mean look at Westjet. True that their company is in much better financial position, but one of the reasons for their stock performance is the pilots/employees involvement in it which props it up.

I also say that Air Canada is not honourable in its approach to competing with Porter, rather puts hurdle in their ways. If it was truthfully interested in competing with Porter, or offering service to its customers from the Island as the senior managers now claim, first it would have never reduced its service at the Island in the first place, and secondly, it would have used its current resources to fly from there. If not the mainline, at least JAZZ, they even have q400s on order. It is clear and evident that its intentions are to drive Porter out of business and the next day shut down this phantom airline of Sky regional and then go back to square one (pun intended!) This is not good honourable business worthy of a national corporation. Regardless of who you work for, you should be able to call a spade, a spade.

[J.O.]

Clearly not worth my time.

[MD2]

J.lo, now with that, our politicians can take a lesson or two from you! I'm glad you had a chance to vent, have a nice life!