Sky Regional to YTZ for AC

[Seeker]

I guess the $37,000 starting wage at AC is a lot to be proud of!!!???

Nope, but we're working on it.

[mrlupin]

I believe Hydro-Quebec for one, probably others.

Air Inuit handles the Hydro Québec Dash-8-400.

[MD2]

Really? You think that ACPA would rather the corporation just leaves Porter alone instead of fielding viable competition?

Pardon me I thought ACPA was after securing employment for its own members, not giving flying away to the lowest bidder. If Air Canada couldn't compete using its own pilots and resources as you say, that would be using a "bankrupt model of running a business". This action of Air Canada is clearly wrong, so is sacrificing the unborn child for the benefit of the older kids, if one was to judge it by one's head and not the hat that covers it!

[Seeker]

Pardon me I thought ACPA was after securing employment for its own members, not giving flying away to the lowest bidder. If Air Canada couldn't compete using its own pilots and resources as you say, that would be using a "bankrupt model of running a business". This action of Air Canada is clearly wrong, so is sacrificing the unborn child for the benefit of the older kids, if one was to judge it by one's head and not the hat that covers it!

You're a funny guy, trying to incite anger where none is warranted. The little bit of Q400 flying to be done is insignificant in the big picture and easily falls within the limits already agreed to by ACPA. The recent vote put to the ACPA members was about adding another CPA company not about increasing the percentage of CPA flying. For me - I have no problem at all giving up a few Rapidairs if it means that the company can compete on better terms with Porter.

[rudder]

Pardon me I thought ACPA was after securing employment for its own members, not giving flying away to the lowest bidder. If Air Canada couldn't compete using its own pilots and resources as you say, that would be using a "bankrupt model of running a business". This action of Air Canada is clearly wrong, so is sacrificing the unborn child for the benefit of the older kids, if one was to judge it by one's head and not the hat that covers it!

New Porter business strategy - go on anonymous bulletin boards and try to convince unions to use discretionary contract provisions to preserve the Porter monopoly at YTZ, or to provide competition with the highest unit costs

[MD2]

New Porter business strategy - go on anonymous bulletin boards and try to convince unions to use discretionary contract provisions to preserve the Porter monopoly at YTZ, or to provide competition with the highest unit costs

This is quite amusing and reminiscent of the pot and kettle story. The same folks that are quick to point out not to presume everyone on this board works for Air Canada do the same to others who dare to use the head instead of the hat that may be on it! Not to mention that in the sea of Air Canada staff that frequent this site and often post material that directly or indirectly advertises their company, how can they question some one else? The only substance in this post, which we all already knew, is the admission that Air Canada's cost is the highest. This is what is called using a bankrupt model of running a business expecting different results. This is an outdated corporate model which will lead to more losses for Air Canada and more burdens to the tax payers. As Mr. Bean said it, these are the facts about this "deal" and corporate/employee relationship within Air Canada. Take the hat off and argue the facts objectively if you can, never mind the people that may bring them forth.

[Seeker]

This is an outdated corporate model which will lead to more losses for Air Canada and more burdens to the tax payers.

What burden to the taxpayers?

[boestar]

Here we go again..... There is no burden to the Tax Payers when it comes to Air Canada. Air Canada is a PUBLICLY TRADED COMPANY and is not the crown corporation it once was. WE ALL KNOW THIS. It has bee 20 years now. Get over it.

Having said that there are still alot of employees who act as if it were still a crown corporation and act with the attitudes indicative of that. Once this remnant is purged from the company things will be allowed to move forward (wishful thinking).

AC DOES have the highest costs and it is also the longest running airline of the group. AC has had 80 years for the employee groups to build up pay scales and benefits (don't even go to where these have been raped recently) and hence has the highest base cost. Not much can be done about that.

[Seeker]

Ahhh Boestar, I was trying to coax MD2 into a cage match over whether or not AC was a burden to the taxpayers. He, of course, knows the truth of this and is just trying to deflect the discussion away from Porter any way he can.

[Kip Powick]

......................Having said that there are still alot of employees who act as if it were still a crown corporation and act with the attitudes indicative of that. Once this remnant is purged from the company things will be allowed to move forward (wishful thinking)..............................

Mr Rovinescu touched on the "entitlement" issue but I feel there was two anchors holding AC in a stationary position.

Along with the "entitlement" anchor was the unendearing anchor of "superiority" and as we all know, any company that projects that trait soon becomes very unpoplar with the masses.

As time has passed the "mother ship" has been slowly slipping her mooring but until all the "old guard", both employees and managers, have set sail on their final 'liberty' ship the vessel will still be dragging her anchors ....to a certain, but almost tolerable, degree.

[Mitch Cronin]

....may I just point out one leeetle factor here?... Both of you two (Kip and Boestar) have been away from AC for a while now.... It's been a long time since I've encountered anything that approaches that "entitlement" you speak of.... Now I admit my own sphere of vision is itself somewhat limited, but what I see is much closer to folks just hoping they can stay employed.

Since all the slashing and burning, and selling off all the contents of the cupboards, followed by selling off the cupboards themselves, most folks I see every day are well aware that there can be precious little difference between employed and unemployed.

As for "superiority"....? Heck, there's nobody in Canada to compare us to. WJ is a great little carrier, but a single GE90 could suck a '37 up whole and spit it out while still grinning! .... and don't get me started on weed whackers!

[Guest floatrrr]

The sense of entitlement is alive and well. ACPA thinks it's entitled to bid on and fly dash 8's , just as ALPA thinks they are entitled to bid on and fly 757's. Where does it end? Only ones getting anything positive out of this are the lawyers and arbitrators.

[Kip Powick]

The sense of entitlement is alive and well. ACPA.....................................

'nuff said.....

[Mitch Cronin]

...sigh...

[Seeker]

The sense of entitlement is alive and well. ACPA thinks it's entitled to bid on and fly dash 8's

Hold on a minute. ACPA feels that it is entitled to do all Air Canada flying and has a contract with the company to do it too. Now if the company decides they'd rather get someone else to do a specific part of that for them they need to negotiate that with the pilot group. What if the company decided they wanted to farm out "Service Checks" or "charter group check-in" - do you suppose that the AMEs or CSRs would just allow that to happen?

[Guest rozar s'macco]

In an occupation (pilot) where you can't just up and walk across the street to another employer and obtain another job while preserving your pay and working conditions, scope is of critical importance. For those of you that think scope = entitlement or scope = greed, I envy your ignorance, because obviously YOUR job isn't like mine.

[DEFCON]

Or is it possible; the now ‘old’ model is considered broken and out of date? In creating a ‘new airline model’, the architect may consider labour the fundamental barrier to profit? Accordingly, a new age air carrier will be structured to protect the interests of its shareholders only.

For example, imagine an ACE type org at the top of the hierarchy. ACE would be the holder of an OC entitling it to operate an airline known as “Air Canada”. From that day forward the ‘new’ Air Canada’s operations will be conducted entirely by many different CPA carriers, many probably coming from diverse regions of the globe?

[boestar]

In an occupation (pilot) where you can't just up and walk across the street to another employer and obtain another job while preserving your pay and working conditions, scope is of critical importance. For those of you that think scope = entitlement or scope = greed, I envy your ignorance, because obviously YOUR job isn't like mine.

Ok so lets talk scope...Who is operating out of scope? Certainly not Sky Regional. Certainly not Jazz. Certainly not Air Georgian...

Turbo Props fall under the scope of the regional carriers or tier 2 and 3 carriers. Jets less than 70 seats also fall into this category. This is covered in the scope clause.

AC has EVERY RIGHT to farm out the short haul turbo prop flying to the lowest bidder and they did. Of course you could walk accross the street and fly a Q-400 for them, I am sure they need pilots.

[boestar]

....may I just point out one leeetle factor here?... Both of you two (Kip and Boestar) have been away from AC for a while now.... It's been a long time since I've encountered anything that approaches that "entitlement" you speak of.... Now I admit my own sphere of vision is itself somewhat limited, but what I see is much closer to folks just hoping they can stay employed.

Since all the slashing and burning, and selling off all the contents of the cupboards, followed by selling off the cupboards themselves, most folks I see every day are well aware that there can be precious little difference between employed and unemployed.

As for "superiority"....? Heck, there's nobody in Canada to compare us to. WJ is a great little carrier, but a single GE90 could suck a '37 up whole and spit it out while still grinning! .... and don't get me started on weed whackers!

Actually Mitch you are probably correct but there are still a few at the top of the org chart (and in the middle) that are still following the "old Rules". until those individuals are gone to sip Mai Tais on the beach for a living the problems at AC will continue. AC need a major over haul FROM THE TOP down. I think Calin understands that but implementing it on that large a scale would do more harm than good in the short term.

[Kip Powick]

Actually Mitch you are probably correct but there are still a few at the top of the org chart (and in the middle) that are still following the "old Rules". until those individuals are gone to sip Mai Tais on the beach for a living the problems at AC will continue. AC need a major over haul FROM THE TOP down. I think Calin understands that but implementing it on that large a scale would do more harm than good in the short term.

'nuff said

[MD2]

What burden to the taxpayers?

Air Canada continues to behave like a crown corporation while both employee groups and corporation EXPECT A BAIL-OUT. It's surprising that this is even a question!

Air Canada Gets Bailout From Ottawa

July 30, 2009, 8:05 am

Air Canada has secured a 1.02 billion Canadian dollar ($922 million) lifeline with some help from the federal government, giving the carrier a crucial infusion of cash to help it survive the recession and avoid another trip through bankruptcy protection, The Globe and Mail reported.

The centerpiece of the financial package is a 600 million dollar loan from a syndicate of lenders. Ottawa will kick in 250 million dollars — 150 million through Export Development Canada and 100 million dollars from the government’s Canada Account.

The Canada Account is used for financing that is considered to be in the “national interest,” but is either too risky or too large for Export Development Canada to accept on its own, the newspaper said.

Getting the money has been a top priority for Calin Rovinescu, Air Canada’s new chief executive, ever since the airline secured a series of labor deals this summer to avoid a strike.

Source: http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/30/air-canada-gets-bailout-from-ottawa/

Air Canada bailout sought

Union urges Ottawa to buy stake in carrier and protect employees' pension benefits

Chris Sorensen

Business Reporter The union representing about 4,500 ticket agents and call-centre workers at Air Canada is urging Ottawa to bail out the country's largest airline and backstop employee pension plans.

Ken Lewenza, the head of the Canadian Auto Workers union, said yesterday that the federal government should take a stake in the country's largest airline as it grapples with an economic downturn that has sapped demand for air travel and wreaked havoc with employee pension plans.

He said that the move would go a long way toward protecting Air Canada and its employees from a cyclical industry that often appears to be lurching from one crisis to the next.

"Air Canada's privatization has been a disaster," said Lewenza, adding that recent investments by Ottawa in the auto sector demonstrate that the federal Conservative government may be open to the idea.

The request was part of a five-point plan proposed by the CAW that also included stopping the wind-up of Air Canada parent ACE Aviation Holding's Inc., setting capacity limits on the Canadian airline sector in a bid to reduce unprofitable flying and block any further payments to former Air Canada CEO Robert Milton, whom the union accuses of "stripping and selling off Air Canada's profitable units leaving the core business to flounder."

Milton, now the CEO of ACE, has defended the move by arguing that the decision to spin off loyalty program Aeroplan in particular freed a valuable business from being dragged down by a notoriously difficult industry.

He has noted that Aeroplan's market valuation is now higher than that of some major U.S. airlines.

But many employees remain bitter after agreeing to more than $1 billion in concessions during Air Canada's restructuring only to watch billions worth of payouts to ACE shareholders following the divestiture of the business units.

Air Canada is preparing for what's expected to be a difficult round of labour negotiations over the next few months with its five unions, whose members will have the option of striking for the first time since the airline emerged from its court-protected restructuring in 2004.

A key issue on the table is the funding of Air Canada's various employee pension plans.

Air Canada estimates deficits in its various employee pension plans total $3.2 billion, with some analysts estimating the airline will need roughly $475 million over the next year just to fund the deficit.

Air Canada, which has sought changes from Ottawa on pension funding rules, said in a statement yesterday it was committed to retaining its employees' defined-benefit pension plans and it is seeking support from its unions for a moratorium "and other conditions" on funding the pension deficit.

The CAW, on the other hand, wants the federal government to require Air Canada to fully fund its pension obligations and set up a federal pension-benefit guarantee fund to backstop pensions of troubled companies.

Leslie Dias, the president of CAW Local 2002, said the union is concerned that Air Canada is privately seeking to move employees away from defined-benefit plans, which guarantee a certain level of benefits once employees retire.

She said in previous negotiations the airline has voiced interest in defined-contribution plans, which only require employers to pay a set amount into the plan.

Source: http://www.thestar.com/business/article/628878

[Guest]

Actually Mitch you are probably correct but there are still a few at the top of the org chart (and in the middle) that are still following the "old Rules". until those individuals are gone to sip Mai Tais on the beach for a living the problems at AC will continue. AC need a major over haul FROM THE TOP down. I think Calin understands that but implementing it on that large a scale would do more harm than good in the short term.

It is my understanding that the airports went through that process last year where a lot of the old style managers were wished well in their future endeavours.

The management side is easier to make changes with compared to the unionized groups, but hopefully a change in leadership would foster change and improve the culture.

[Seeker]

Ottawa will kick in 250 million dollars — 150 million through Export Development Canada and 100 million dollars from the government's Canada Account.

Nice try. You know that was a loan and that it was paid back less than a year later. So....no burden on the taxpayers. In any case why shouldn't the government provide the odd loan guarantee since it's airport rents have been bleeding the industry for years. As for employees expecting a bailout, so what. This expectation has nothing to do with your claim that AC has been a burden on the taxpayer - please try to stay with your own argument for a few posts at least.

[MD2]

In spite of all the fancy talk about clause and cause and scope, the simple fact seems to indicate that Air Canada corporate is gradually deconstructing its unions and making them irrelevant. Not only has it forced its staff into pay-cuts and concessions, it has deflected its own poor planning and lack of innovation, giving the illusion that "baby-eaters from the West" or the "pesky raccoon" are coming for their lunches, meanwhile doing the old "switch & bate" routine to use their money from the pay-cuts for "quiet" handsome executive bonuses. The trouble lies in the bankrupt model of running a business and the insanity in doing the same thing expecting different results.

Let's assume that Air Canada operates 35 Rapidair flights a day carrying about 3000 pax, and these flights are shared among the B767, A320, and EMB. This would mean an average cost of, let's say X dollars in labour cost, particularly pilot cost. Now, Air Canada sees an opportunity to ship some of this flying to a 3rd or 4th tier flying while pretending to be saving the day by fending off the pesky little raccoon. This way about a 1000 of those pax are transported using the airline that submitted the lowest bid to get the flying, thereby reducing its pilot cost in this busy corridor a third of what it was before or X/3. Next it will do the same on some of its overseas flying because the pesky "Muhammads" from the East and reduce the pilot cost on that route from Y to Y/3. Naturally at the end of the year the corporate would hale itself for its shrewd sense of business and give itself another "quiet" little executive bonus.

Before you know it, a good portion of its flying is farmed out to third and fourth tier airlines whose contract can be terminated with 6 months notice, as is the case with Sky, and one hungry fellow is played against another and down goes the piloting profession. Of course the corporate comes out of all this smelling like roses as heroes for fending off the "baby-eaters from the West" and "the pesky raccoon", etc. and the remaining employees, as evident by some posts above, are just too happy to have a job to pay-off the mortgage never wondering how was it that they ended up from X to a third of it or how little they have to leave for posterity!

[Seeker]

In spite of all the fancy talk about clause and cause and scope, the simple fact seems to indicate that Air Canada corporate is gradually deconstructing its unions and making them irrelevant. Not only has it forced its staff into pay-cuts and concessions, it has deflected its own poor planning and lack of innovation, giving the illusion that "baby-eaters from the West" or the "pesky raccoon" are coming for their lunches, meanwhile doing the old "switch & bate" routine to use their money from the pay-cuts for "quiet" handsome executive bonuses. The trouble lies in the bankrupt model of running a business and the insanity in doing the same thing expecting different results.

Let's assume that Air Canada operates 35 Rapidair flights a day carrying about 3000 pax, and these flights are shared among the B767, A320, and EMB. This would mean an average cost of, let's say X dollars in labour cost, particularly pilot cost. Now, Air Canada sees an opportunity to ship some of this flying to a 3rd or 4th tier flying while pretending to be saving the day by fending off the pesky little raccoon. This way about a 1000 of those pax are transported using the airline that submitted the lowest bid to get the flying, thereby reducing its pilot cost in this busy corridor a third of what it was before or X/3. Next it will do the same on some of its overseas flying because the pesky "Muhammads" from the East and reduce the pilot cost on that route from Y to Y/3. Naturally at the end of the year the corporate would hale itself for its shrewd sense of business and give itself another "quiet" little executive bonus.

Before you know it, a good portion of its flying is farmed out to third and fourth tier airlines whose contract can be terminated with 6 months notice, as is the case with Sky, and one hungry fellow is played against another and down goes the piloting profession. Of course the corporate comes out of all this smelling like roses as heroes for fending off the "baby-eaters from the West" and "the pesky raccoon", etc. and the remaining employees, as evident by some posts above, are just too happy to have a job to pay-off the mortgage never wondering how was it that they ended up from X to a third of it or how little they have to leave for posterity!

You're running out of material MD, starting to repeat yourself; "baby-eaters from the West" and "the pesky raccoon" maybe you should stop posting until you can dream up something new?

Your nefarious plan makes no sense - first of all the pilot cost is irrelevant, a few pennies either way. Second of all the reason service was dropped at the island years ago was because it was cheaper to provide the service from YYZ so doesn't make any sense to say that they are restarting it to save on "pilot costs". In any case as I've already pointed out to you that this is not new CPA flying but a slight, very slight redistribution of flying that was already agreed to by ACPA and, personally, I'm glad to see our management finally doing something to compete with the raccoon.