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Sky Regional to YTZ for AC


chockalicious

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Clearly not worth my time.

Or perhaps, clearly too embarrassed by your previous derisive post especially after seeing my reply. I didn't quote you just in case you decided to delete it. Life's too short to get so riled-up. I do continue to wish you well!

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Good golly that's a high horse you've planted yourself upon there MD2... The trouble is, you've jumped it in the middle of a bog.

You've evidently assumed nearly everyone here is employed by Air Canada,

...and you've avoided nearly every question directed to you,

...who wouldn't be getting tired of that?

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Good golly that's a high horse you've planted yourself upon there MD2... The trouble is, you've jumped it in the middle of a bog.

You've evidently assumed nearly everyone here is employed by Air Canada,

...and you've avoided nearly every question directed to you,

...who wouldn't be getting tired of that?

I suppose you could be right to some extent about working for AC. But why would people ask all their questions/accusations/challenges about Porter from me expecting immediate comprehensive specific answers with verifiable data, links and independent reports? Have you ever thought of that? No, evidently not!

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What's the point of this comment? I wish you well in your next negotiations to get a "fair" settlement and certainly they should have left a clause in there for salary recuperation and/or giving a stake to the pilots in the form of stocks and options, then you ridicule my comment? Ok fine, ask for less and give concessions, happy now?! I mean look at Westjet. True that their company is in much better financial position, but one of the reasons for their stock performance is the pilots/employees involvement in it which props it up.

I also say that Air Canada is not honourable in its approach to competing with Porter, rather puts hurdle in their ways. If it was truthfully interested in competing with Porter, or offering service to its customers from the Island as the senior managers now claim, first it would have never reduced its service at the Island in the first place, and secondly, it would have used its current resources to fly from there. If not the mainline, at least JAZZ, they even have q400s on order. It is clear and evident that its intentions are to drive Porter out of business and the next day shut down this phantom airline of Sky regional and then go back to square one (pun intended!) This is not good honourable business worthy of a national corporation. Regardless of who you work for, you should be able to call a spade, a spade.

If the market is such at YTZ that there are big profits to be made, perhaps you could explain to all of us why that opportunity should be limited to one company? Would you prefer that every litre of gas in Canada be sold by Petro Canada and every car on the road be manufactured by Ford whilst your at it?

It's called competition. You've had a 4 year head start. If the product is as good as you think it is and your customers are as loyal as you think they are, you haven't a worry in the world.

:wink_smile:

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My dear Mr. Bean, in case you haven't heard there are other airlines coming in, and in fact, Air Canada could have always operated out of there, they just chose not to and instead prefered to sue people! That's because the intention to run a viable operation out of YTZ was never ever with Air Canada. If you don't know that by now, maybe you ought to "snoop" around some more!

Judging by your interest/concern, it seems that Westjet is putting a lot of resources to shore up loads in the East, which begs two questions. Is Westjet having regrets for not filing application out of YTZ, and how bad is the load factor erosion is being viewed there? Is it only in the Eastern triangle or the entire East? Thanks.

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I think that as much as Jazz pretends its disappointed not going into the island why take the financial chance. Most of us feel it's just a battle to rid of the island flying once and for all. Jazz management may be smarter and more conniving than we think. Hope Skyservice doesn't get the short end of the stick again.

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Quite possible skyline, plus for J.O and AC flight attendant that were complaining about compensation at Porter, it is a clear misjudgment to compare an 80 year old mammoth of an airline which is the national carrier with a new start-up. Plus, have a look at the wages being offered at Skyline, which is not much different from Colgan and a clear indication of Air Canada's race to the bottom. For the challenging flying out of the Island, what kind of experience level are they likely to attract with that compensation package that is lower than Jetsgo? Let it be said again, Air Canada is in no way shape or form interested in serving the public from the Island as its top managers claim, but only in driving out competition. The traveling public will surely see that Air Canada's corporate policy remains to be the pursuit of extermination of competitors, not competition in good faith. What a shame for Air Canada!

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This argument about opening the airport up to competition is a bit disingenuous isn't it? The government makes exclusive arrangements like this one all the time.

In this case, why would any airport owner not seek the best tenants that they can? Nobody made a serious effort at making a go out of operating out of the Island when the field was wide open for competition, so if you own the airport and some prospective tenant comes along offering to rent the place and bring in decent revenue then you'd be foolish not to accept the deal. If that means giving a virtual monopoly for the one carrier then so be it as long as they bring in revenue never seen before and invest in the facility. AC had it's chance pre CCAA and rather than integrate it they deliberately hamstringed the operation. Now AC is begging to come back in? Who wants to re-rent to a poor tenant? One that will drive the good tenants out of business and then once that's accomplished, pack up and move out themselves. If YTZ was privately held you'd fire the airport manager who let that happen.

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My dear Mr. Bean, in case you haven't heard there are other airlines coming in, and in fact, Air Canada could have always operated out of there, they just chose not to and instead prefered to sue people! That's because the intention to run a viable operation out of YTZ was never ever with Air Canada. If you don't know that by now, maybe you ought to "snoop" around some more!

Judging by your interest/concern, it seems that Westjet is putting a lot of resources to shore up loads in the East, which begs two questions. Is Westjet having regrets for not filing application out of YTZ, and how bad is the load factor erosion is being viewed there? Is it only in the Eastern triangle or the entire East? Thanks.

With Porter having acknowledged $40 million in losses since launch and reporting some of the worst operating metrics in the business, I'd be a little careful about questioning others about their commitment to operate a viable airline out of YTZ.

If WJ wanted access to YTZ, they could quite easily get it. It's been offered to them, and others, before. I suspect you, more than most, are quite aware of this..... :wink_smile:

WJ has been allocating most of it's capacity growth to transborder and sun. I suspect at least 85% of WJ's Sept's 12% capacity growth was in this sector. I'll give you two guesses which month of the year is the weakest for transborder / sun travel. Here's a hint. It starts with the letter S.

Another tid bit you need to consider: WJ has the grand total of 1.57% of it's capacity in the eastern triangle. If it all flew 100% empty last month, and I can pretty much assure you that it didn't, WJ's l/f would have been 73.9% and they'd still be well above their BELF.

I've never seen a corellation to airline profitability and the Eastern Triangle for anyone. Porter's 4 year experiment losing $40 million in the Triangle isn't particularly compelling evidence to the contrary. Airlines need to be in the market for network reasons, but the key is to ensure it doesn't become the giant sucking sound that permanently echoes around Porter's revenue accounting offices.

I hate to break this to you, but biggest hurt Porter is exerting on anyone is on it's own investors.

:cool:

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The whole story sounds a lot like Edmonton's YEG. It will not end until YTZ is closed. The people who want to close YTZ will not give up until they get the answer they want. It does not matter if they are right or wrong, the major airport and large airlines will fund the campaign, supply all kinds of propaganda to fuel the fire etc.

But then again I am an Optimist!

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T.F. that certainly seems to be the case as Air Canada and Westjet have opposed US pre-clearance, slot allocation, etc. Air Canada would probably fund anyone who's willing to fight YTZ, possibly including Community Air. Mr. Bean tries to switch and bate, but it seems that Westjet too is losing market share to Porter which is why they've re-allocated their marketing resources. Airline's executives are more forthright than Mr. Bean it seems and give credit where it's due. Also, it is quite possible that Westjet really wanted to also get into YTZ, but with so many things on their plate, and having to add (an)other type to their fleet for YTZ operations, they decided to forgo that. Now they've realized that they will continue losing market share in the East, which may still be OK if they can make up for it elsewhere. Also even if September is slow, Mr. Bean deliberately neglects to concede that load factor erosion was compared to the same period last year. It could be insignificant, but it is quite telling that those rose-coloured glasses stay firmly on the eyes of Mr. analyst!

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T.F. that certainly seems to be the case as Air Canada and Westjet have opposed US pre-clearance, slot allocation, etc. Air Canada would probably fund anyone who's willing to fight YTZ, possibly including Community Air. Mr. Bean tries to switch and bate, but it seems that Westjet too is losing market share to Porter which is why they've re-allocated their marketing resources. Airline's executives are more forthright than Mr. Bean it seems and give credit where it's due. Also, it is quite possible that Westjet really wanted to also get into YTZ, but with so many things on their plate, and having to add (an)other type to their fleet for YTZ operations, they decided to forgo that. Now they've realized that they will continue losing market share in the East, which may still be OK if they can make up for it elsewhere. Also even if September is slow, Mr. Bean deliberately neglects to concede that load factor erosion was compared to the same period last year. It could be insignificant, but it is quite telling that those rose-coloured glasses stay firmly on the eyes of Mr. analyst!

Are you seriously suggesting that Porter's target market of is the same as WJ's target market in the triangle? Are you suggesting that Porter's casm is even remotely competitive to WJ's, especially when operating outside the cosy confines of YTZ where frequency isn't an issue and the mix is much more weighted to price conscious leisure guests?

Chasing leisure marketshare with Porter's sky high turboprop unit costs is a fools game. If it were viable, Bombardier wouldn't be able to manufacture Q400's fast enough. They'd be nicknamed "the Southwest / Ryanair Killer". Funny. That hasn't happened. I wonder why.......

Western Pacific is another classic example of an airline that used shareholder's equity to buy market share.

Some chose to play the game, (Frontier), some chose to ignore it, (Southwest), correctly recognizing that airlines that have negative double digit margins are not likely to survive.

There's a lesson to be learned here.

When are 2Q numbers going to be released? How about 3Q? How's that BELF? Still pretending it's 49%? The last documented numbers proved it had swollen to well over 50% and I'm willing to bet the low yield driven market share push has caused it to move even higher....

B)

:cool:

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Hey! They can't do that. ACPA still hasn't given it's approval!

Actually they have. If I were ACPA, I'd be cheering this on.

http://www.theglobea...article1742152/

I'm not sure if I'm cheering it on as there's pros and cons but I know if I was a Jazz pilot I'd be concerned about this development.

Fortunately for you, you don't have to worry.

Scratch-Head.gif

In who's face? ACPA has been discussing this for quite some time and a recent membership poll gave support to the idea of adding a CPA agreement with another company. The short answer is that this is no surprise to ACPA members.

We've known about it and have been discussing it for 5 weeks. We haven't agreed to anything. There is an outstanding grievance on the Q400 and this announcement creates another with regard to tier 2 flying. Until we ratify changes that make this flying legal, it's a gamble.

Ah, OK, I didn't know you were an ACPA member. You don't really think the ratification will fail do you? Yes, there is a grievance but that will fail. We'll be seeing Sky Regional pilots flying those Q400s in February - that's my bet.

Getting back to the original discussion how is this being received by ACPA members?

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I was chatting with a young friend (Pilot trying to get ahead in this business) yesterday, he tells me 'the word on the street' is 50k / year for a Captain.

Could someone please tell me, this isn't true!

Someone has already mentioned Sky Regional FO's will be $30,000/yr plus $14/hr so CA's at 50K (plus an hourly rate?)is probably accurate. They must have dug up the City Express pay scales from 1986.

Too bad but not surprised.

bd

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Remember that little Dash 8 operation in the US - Colgan Air?

Or how about Jetsgo - required the Pilots to "pay for training" in the order of $30,000. Pilots that were in the right seat of King Airs saw rapid advancement to the left seat of the MD-80. Unfortunately -they also ran an Airliner out of fuel taxing in and put one into the infield in Calgary. Airline went broke and left a bunch of Pilots in (more) debt.

Air Canada and Jazz (...Westjet ?) are hiring Pilots. Who will Sky Regional get for these wages?

Nobody that I would put my family behind.

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...Air Canada and Jazz (...Westjet ?) are hiring Pilots. Who will Sky Regional get for these wages?...

Let's not forget that Air Canada started this race to the bottom and ACPA acquiesced, otherwise it should be AC pilots and resources.

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Let's not forget that Air Canada started this race to the bottom and ACPA acquiesced, otherwise it should be AC pilots and resources.

It was AC pilots and resources until Porter came along and started selling tickets below cost.

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It was AC pilots and resources until Porter came along and started selling tickets below cost.

So it's Porter's fault that Air Canada has always manipulated its pilots and other employee groups?! Wow!

It is evident that Air Canada has no commitment to this venture, or honourable intentions in serving the public and is only manipulating all parties just to put an obstacle in Porter's path, but since you're such a die hard fan, I'm curious how you can defend this "move" by Air Canada that is reminiscent of Roots Air. Please enlighten me.

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So it's Porter's fault that Air Canada has always manipulated its pilots and other employee groups?! Wow!

It is evident that Air Canada has no commitment to this venture, or honourable intentions in serving the public and is only manipulating all parties just to put an obstacle in Porter's path, but since you're such a die hard fan, I'm curious how you can defend this "move" by Air Canada that is reminiscent of Roots Air. Please enlighten me.

Haha, nope, not gonna get sucked into that blackhole. My comment was simply in response to your assertion that AC had started a race-to-the-bottom with the Sky Regional plan when this little dance was obviously started by Porter.

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Haha, nope, not gonna get sucked into that blackhole. My comment was simply in response to your assertion that AC had started a race-to-the-bottom with the Sky Regional plan when this little dance was obviously started by Porter.

What a cop-out! I'm going to go on a limb and say that the majority of ACPA members are not happy with this "sell-out" and race to the bottom and instead want to have an honourable partner in the corporate that does not follow a bankrupt model of running a business.

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I'm going to go on a limb and say that the majority of ACPA members are not happy with this "sell-out" and race to the bottom and instead want to have an honourable partner in the corporate that does not follow a bankrupt model of running a business.

Really? You think that ACPA would rather the corporation just leaves Porter alone instead of fielding viable competition?

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