Toronto Island

[skyline]

Can anyone confirm Jazz loosing the PCA out of the island?

[J.O.]

By that do you mean that another operator will be flying for AC out of YTZ? (BTW, losing is spelled with one "o" - common error).

[Seeker]

Can anyone confirm Jazz loosing the PCA out of the island?

I have heard rumors of this, including which company and what aircraft they'd use, but nothing concrete.

[chris]

Id heard rumours of Voyageur or Skyservice. Everyday there seems to be a new rumour, aviation is sooo exciting

[AIP]

Perhaps its time to repatriate some flying. I know a lot of guys at the mainline that would like to fly the Q400.

[Spinnaker]

Perhaps its time to repatriate some flying. I know a lot of guys at the mainline that would like to fly the Q400.

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Putting aside the issues that pilots have on this- scope, the CPA rates, the potential for igniting a race to the bottom, Jazz' monopoly on tier 2 feed etc...

Does it really make sense for AC to chase this business at the island? I understand that Porter is hurting our business on the eastern triangle, however by most accounts their load factor is pretty weak. Like 50% weak. So AC starts up a Q400 operation using our slots there. We tat Porter's tit, hurt their load factor but probably only generate a 50% load factor for ourselves all the while further cannibalizing our triangle business that goes through Pearson. A year or two later, Porter runs out of cash. Does AC keep the island operation going? History says probably not because- surprise!- there is no money to be made there! Sure there are lots of happy businesspeople who take the streetcar to the ferry to collect their free Stella, but they aren't willing to pay a sufficient premium to do so. Therefore, it is a bad idea.

Anyhow, I just wonder the intelligence of this whole enterprise on AC's part- chasing a previously abandoned profitless market. There are probably much, much cheaper ways of helping hasten Porter's demise. Unless there is another end game scenario that doesn't have AC crucified in the public's eye for "killing" Porter and then abandoning the island...again, around 2014.

[rudder]

Putting aside the issues that pilots have on this- scope, the CPA rates, the potential for igniting a race to the bottom, Jazz' monopoly on tier 2 feed etc...

Does it really make sense for AC to chase this business at the island? I understand that Porter is hurting our business on the eastern triangle, however by most accounts their load factor is pretty weak. Like 50% weak. So AC starts up a Q400 operation using our slots there. We tat Porter's tit, hurt their load factor but probably only generate a 50% load factor for ourselves all the while further cannibalizing our triangle business that goes through Pearson. A year or two later, Porter runs out of cash. Does AC keep the island operation going? History says probably not because- surprise!- there is no money to be made there! Sure there are lots of happy businesspeople who take the streetcar to the ferry to collect their free Stella, but they aren't willing to pay a sufficient premium to do so. Therefore, it is a bad idea.

Anyhow, I just wonder the intelligence of this whole enterprise on AC's part- chasing a previously abandoned profitless market. There are probably much, much cheaper ways of helping hasten Porter's demise. Unless there is another end game scenario that doesn't have AC crucified in the public's eye for "killing" Porter and then abandoning the island...again, around 2014.

Whether Porter runs 20 flights per day or 200, the result is the same - they are killing yields on any route that they (and AC) serve. And as they are funded entirely by private equity, they are not necessarily under any obligation to be profitable any time soon. Therefore, it behooves AC to be aggressive and see exactly what the Porter sponsors pain threshold is when the rate of burn of their cash goes from a campfire to an inferno.

[Leading Edge]

It always makes me laugh when I read about YTZ flying. I spent a few years there, so I do have some insight.

Most people seem to continuously miss the boat (pun not intended) on this one. Toronto Island is popular for one reason only... GTAA. Getting to Pearson from downtown is a real PITA. If AC wants to speed up Porters demise, it should push hard for a fixed, fast rail link to downtown - think 15min to YYZ. Do this and you can leverage Aeroplan, speed, etc... No need to start up an Island operation, and it will permanently make an YTZ based Airline uneconomical.

LE

[CD]

Your travel agent didn't give you a very good quote on the AC metal, did they? Here is what I got:

AC450 Toronto, Pearson Int'l (YYZ) to Ottawa, Ottawa Int'l (YOW) Tue Nov-02 12:10 13:10

AC451 Ottawa, Ottawa Int'l (YOW) to Toronto, Pearson Int'l (YYZ) Thu Nov-04 12:00 13:00

Departing Flight 89.00

Returning Flight 89.00

Taxes, fees, charges and surcharges 111.56

Grand Total - Canadian dollars $289.56 CAD

Of course, you can't really beat the $29 and $39 fares that WestJet is offering!

[Ex 9A Guy]

Perhaps its time to repatriate some flying. I know a lot of guys at the mainline that would like to fly the Q400.

You are kidding me right!!!!!

[Fido]

I don't use a travel agent, the quotes were from Travelocity.ca.........

You need a display like this:

It proves that frequency wins. AC has the frequency and is able to charge more for the priviledge of buying a ticket with them. It also helps prove that YTZ is a limited market compared to YYZ

[Super 80]

The remains of Skyservice were sniffing around for ATR' -500's earlier this year, six of each.

[Super 80]

It always makes me laugh when I read about YTZ flying. I spent a few years there, so I do have some insight.

Most people seem to continuously miss the boat (pun not intended) on this one. Toronto Island is popular for one reason only... GTAA. Getting to Pearson from downtown is a real PITA. If AC wants to speed up Porters demise, it should push hard for a fixed, fast rail link to downtown - think 15min to YYZ. Do this and you can leverage Aeroplan, speed, etc... No need to start up an Island operation, and it will permanently make an YTZ based Airline uneconomical.

LE

Last I heard Toronto was going to raid the VIA bone yard for sixty year old diesel rail cars for a $35 ride to Pearson, doesn't sound like much of a threat... although possibly an intriguing tourist attraction.

[skyline]

I strongly feel this is all part of CV master plan. He does have a plan, which the Feds will fully support. What does he have in store for mainline?

He will get is way. Be assured.

[blues deville]

The remains of Skyservice were sniffing around for ATR' -500's earlier this year, six of each.

And what were they going to do with six turbo-props?

bd

[Super 80]

CPA?

[Seeker]

The remains of Skyservice were sniffing around for ATR' -500's earlier this year, six of each.

By this you mean six -42s and six -72s?

[Bobcaygeon]

Could this likely be another negotiating tactic by AC and Jazz management against Jazz to lower costs? AC/Air Ontario management used this tactic in the late 90's when they threatened to form a tier 3 carrier agreement (similar to Air Georgian)with Voyageur (1900's). It made it to the initial hiring stage before the AO pilots agreed to a "let".

[inchman]

Could this likely be another negotiating tactic by AC and Jazz management against Jazz to lower costs? AC/Air Ontario management used this tactic in the late 90's when they threatened to form a tier 3 carrier agreement (similar to Air Georgian)with Voyageur (1900's). It made it to the initial hiring stage before the AO pilots agreed to a "let".

The CPA pricing is already fixed in the contract between AC and Jazz . It really doesn't matter what the pilots are paid or what lets they give, so I can't see that being part of AC's tactic. AC no longer owns any part of Jazz, as far as I know.

I'm guessing that AC is just looking for an alternate supplier to save some money because it still pays too much to Jazz under the CPA. They're probably not all that enamoured with Jazz's foray into larger aircraft, either.

[Super 80]

By this you mean six -42s and six -72s?

Yes,

[John S.]

I'm guessing that AC is just looking for an alternate supplier to save some money because it still pays too much to Jazz under the CPA.

That's an interesting way to look at the cost of the CPA. But I think that you are deliberately leaving out a big part of the whole discussion.

Take, for example, an argument that Air Canada could make deals with a dozen flight schools to fly the Dash-8's and CRJ's. Let's say the costs could EASILY be driven down to one-fifth the current. Heck, if the brand-new students were fly for free it would be even better than one-fifth.

But would such a deal be a good deal for Air Canada? If it were don't you think that Mr. Milton et al would have already done so?

Air Canada wants certain airplanes to be flown to various places at particular times. Jazz gets paid to supply pilots, flight attendants, mechanics and all the support staff (dispatchers, crew schedulers, maintenance planners etc) as well as some managers to manager the whole works to get those airplanes where and when Air Canada want them.

All this costs. And it costs a LOT more than hiring kids straight out of school. But for a reason: Like the old saying goes "you get what you pay for". If Air Canada is paying Jazz "too much" than that is what it is worth. Perhaps paying too little just isn't worth it.

They're probably not all that enamoured with Jazz's foray into larger aircraft, either.

Do you think that the Air Canada management knew nothing about this TC deal before it was signed?

I'm on the side of the fence that believes that NOTHING goes on in Canadian Aviation that would be a complete surprize to the senior Air Canada management. (Same goes for WestJet senior management.)

[Seeker]

Do you think that the Air Canada management knew nothing about this TC deal before it was signed?

AC management may have known about it but that doesn't mean they like it, or could have done anything to stop it. I believe that AC management is looking to sign on other CPA feed, partly to have a lever against Jazz when the CPA comes up for renewal and partly to get out from having all their eggs in one basket. The latest brush with a strike highlights a weakness that must be mitigated.

[John S.]

The latest brush with a strike highlights a weakness that must be mitigated.

Do you think that there might be another brush with a strike in the new year?

[props2you]

LOL, doncha just love it when those who moan about how Jazz pilots are driving down pay for 757 pilots turn around an nearly wet themselves with glee about Tier 3's driving down pilot pay?