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Talks continue. Location moved to Ottawa.(This may be getting political all of a sudden.)

Apparently the pilots got a whiff that company was pulling some unsavory moves at the table yesterday.

GTFA

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Saw a note from a union head today that said AC might be planning to ask folks to "volunteer" for "SCAB" service at some of the various outstations in the event of a strike.... ....sure hope no ugliness happens, if it comes to that! :(

Best of luck to all.... don't let 'em feed you any dog food! The "three legged stool" has been standing on two legs for way too long!

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With Calin Roving-a-scew now intimately involved in the process we can be sure he is making friends with pilots who may think it's a good idea to do extra duty. CR does NOT make friends... he makes money! He knows full well that there remains acrimonious regard for "the Feeders" by pilot types at AC and will take full advantage of it.

Join the team or don't join the team, still the mantra "Taking it Back" is one ALL pilots should adopt.

GTFA

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Why would Rovenescu be involved with one of his suppliers labour negotiations? That would be akin to him be involved in NavCanada negots or Cara or Consolidated, etc.

Edited by Homerun

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You answer a perfectly legitimate question with "whatever"? Makes it pretty hard to take your previous rant seriously, IMHO.

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CR is involved because Jazz operates some 800 flights for AC. Given that a disruption of service at Jazz would cause problems for AC it stands to reason that he has involved himself. Given that Jazz management has not been bargaining in good faith, it is likely that they are counting on CR's involvement to assist in their quest to ensure that the Federal Government will be on side to enact Federal Back to Work legislation against the pilots, and likely the fa's as well. CR's role in this is to state that a disruption of service by Jazz Pilots or FA's will cause a financial hardship to AC.

This seems to be the standard play by companies that fall under Federal Labour laws when organized labour is not cooperative - they seek legislation to accomplish their goal of returning everyone back to work and appointing an arbitrator, who will likely impose a less than ideal solution.

I am only surmizing all this but I doubt it is far from being the truth and can be taken as a forecast of what is in store when negotiations resume with the various AC unions.

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So the fact Calin was in Ottawa to speak to the Canadian Club today means he's at the bargaining table? I'd think his presence is not needed. It's up to Jazz, and Jazz shareholders, to bear the brunt of a settlement. If Jazz goes bust, AC will suffer short-term pain for long-term gain.

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If Jazz goes bust, AC will suffer short-term pain for long-term gain.

I am curious to know how and why you figure AC will suffer short term only to gain in the long term? The suffer in the short term seems obvious, but how could this be good for AC Dagger?

Éric

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You answer a perfectly legitimate question with "whatever"? Makes it pretty hard to take your previous rant seriously, IMHO.

I think "Homerun" has been on this forum long enough to understand the dynamics of AC and the ex-subsidiaries, now franchisees. A rhetorical question like "why would he be there?" is a little weak. Maybe he could contribute with an opinion?

My opinion is that he was there,(not Ottawa), to intimidate and threaten. Of Course he is there to represent the interest of AC...

Is it meddling? Is he coercing the Minister of Labour to meddle as well?

GTFA

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How many days on strike for Jazz before the CPA becomes null and void ??

There are plenty of people (in certain circles) rubbing their hands together, as Dagger alludes to.

I don't think AC would do any flying or else face the onslaught of their union brethren. Take a look at the Spirit fiasco down south.

As I'm sure you're aware, the routes Jazz flys under the CPA, are owned by Air Canada. The latest Jeppesen Chart amendment for the EMB and 320 have just included a number of those stations.

Plenty of interesting days ahead....

Edited by Johnny

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I am curious to know how and why you figure AC will suffer short term only to gain in the long term? The suffer in the short term seems obvious, but how could this be good for AC Dagger?

Éric

Simple. Jazz shareholders take a healthy profit from Jazz operations, and if Jazz operations (except the 757s) were parcelled out to two or more Tier 3 operators, two things would happen. The operations would be cheaper and AC could keep playing the Tier 3s off against each other as contracts came up. And if a Tier 3's crews went on strike, their CPA would be cancelled and the flying handed over to the other Tier 3. After all, AC owns the Jazz jets. I'm not saying these disruptions are cost-free, they're not, but in the big picture, AC can contain its costs of feeder flying a whole lot better. And if the alternative is to fold the CRJs back into mainline and strike a deal with ACPA for that flying... well, I think that can be done, too, and if it costs a little more, think of it being subsidized by the profits that won't have to be paid to Jazz unitholders.

You'll remember I said years ago as Milton went through the divestiture strategy that as various of these AC "family" agreements with the spinoff companies expire, AC would be able to mark them to market in negotiations. Well, the same would apply if a CPA or other supplier agreement is voided by a strike of sufficient duration.

Edited by dagger

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Simple. Jazz shareholders take a healthy profit from Jazz operations,

They do indeed. In fact jazz has the highest distribution rate amoungst the very few North American airlines that pay a distribution (dividend). You would think the rational move for the unit holder would be to agree to share a bit of the cash (100 % Of which came out of labor's pocket during the CCAA process) rather than see it all disappear :Scratch-Head:

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Simple. Jazz shareholders take a healthy profit from Jazz operations, and if Jazz operations (except the 757s) were parcelled out to two or more Tier 3 operators, two things would happen. The operations would be cheaper and AC could keep playing the Tier 3s off against each other as contracts came up. And if a Tier 3's crews went on strike, their CPA would be cancelled and the flying handed over to the other Tier 3. After all, AC owns the Jazz jets. I'm not saying these disruptions are cost-free, they're not, but in the big picture, AC can contain its costs of feeder flying a whole lot better. And if the alternative is to fold the CRJs back into mainline and strike a deal with ACPA for that flying... well, I think that can be done, too, and if it costs a little more, think of it being subsidized by the profits that won't have to be paid to Jazz unitholders.

You'll remember I said years ago as Milton went through the divestiture strategy that as various of these AC "family" agreements with the spinoff companies expire, AC would be able to mark them to market in negotiations. Well, the same would apply if a CPA or other supplier agreement is voided by a strike of sufficient duration.

That all ignores the very real possibility that the folks buying the rides might not cotton to any of that... and in the meanwhile, the wise folks at WJ are watching closely. ...and if Rovinescu is foolish enough to bank on your logic, AC will be a shadow of it's former self in no time.

...[and if my phone rings in the next few minutes, I'm not answering!]

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That all ignores the very real possibility that the folks buying the rides might not cotton to any of that... and in the meanwhile, the wise folks at WJ are watching closely. ...and if Rovinescu is foolish enough to bank on your logic, AC will be a shadow of it's former self in no time.

...[and if my phone rings in the next few minutes, I'm not answering!]

It may shock you to learn that this is not Air Canada's call or Air Canada's negotiation. Really. If you were on Mars the past five years, you might not know that, but Jazz is a separate company with separate directors and separate shareholders. It's up to Jazz and its employees to blow their brains out on this one, not Calin. As for the folks not cottoning to whatever, there are a lot of routes where the alternative is driving many hours to a hub.

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Guest flywest

"As I'm sure you're aware, the routes Jazz flys under the CPA, are owned by Air Canada. The latest Jeppesen Chart amendment for the EMB and 320 have just included a number of those stations."

According to ALPA, ACPA has already pledged it's support to the Jazz Pilot's by stating that it will not accept extra flying/overtime for the duration of any strike action.

FW

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It may shock you to learn that this is not Air Canada's call or Air Canada's negotiation. Really. If you were on Mars the past five years, you might not know that, but Jazz is a separate company with separate directors and separate shareholders. It's up to Jazz and its employees to blow their brains out on this one, not Calin. As for the folks not cottoning to whatever, there are a lot of routes where the alternative is driving many hours to a hub.

"It might shock [me] to learn"? C'mon Dagger... you know me better than that, don't you?

You were talking about AC's options and/or potential fortunes, should the occasion arise.... and I'm saying I hope to heaven Calin isn't thinking like that!

As for: t"here are a lot of routes where the alternative is driving many hours to a hub." ....That can change fairly quickly, and you know it.

If I knew you half as well as I think I do, I'd say you were engaging in a management-style of a posturing exercise.... just for the fun of it.... ... but I don't, so I'll play dumb... Gee Dagger, I guess we'd all better be looking for Air Georgian to be growing great guns in the near future eh!?

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RussD, the concessions that labour gave up in CCAA certainly help Jazz's bottom line but they do not account for 100% of Jazz's profitability. The bulk of Jazz's profit comes from AC vastly overpaying for the service provided. It was set up this way when ACE owned both in order to float Jazz as an income trust.

I agree with Dagger completely. Rovenescu's job is to look out for AC's bottom line. Full stop. If he's not licking his chops at the thought of a 7 day strike which would allow him to cancel the CPA and re-negotiate it's terms, then he's not doing his job. He's the same guy as he was in 2003, but this time he looks out only for AC, Jazz's profitability is not his concern.

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Gee Dagger, I guess we'd all better be looking for Air Georgian to be growing great guns in the near future eh!?

Yep, and Calm Air and Provincial, too

http://www.airgeorgi...out/default.asp

About Air Georgian Ltd.

The parent company was established as an Ontario company on March 5, 1985 and presently operates as the Tier III Scheduled service operator for Canada's largest airline.

CMA / Air Canada Code-Share Services:

Central Mountain Air in-conjunction with Air Canada offers Air Canada connecting customers the ability to make convenient same airport-terminal flight connections with Air Canada to regional, national and International destinations, which Air Canada sells and markets directly.

Air Canada connecting customers traveling to or from Campbell River, Comox, Quesnel & Williams Lake, BC through Vancouver's International airport will be provided with onward boarding passes and through checked baggage.

I think some day Mitch you'll stop buying union propaganda and understand that the richer AC is, the better deal you will get, that your best interest does NOT lie in showing solidarity to a regional airline like Jazz that now sponges off AC.

I'm fairly confident that if Jazz unions overplay their hand, AC will strike deals with a variety of Tier 3s to assume Dash 8 flying, and then play them off for maximum benefit. I also assume that if there is no CPA, ACPA will find it expedient to take over some of that CRJ flying.

Edited by dagger

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