Fido Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 There is more than one successful airline 'business model' in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakelad Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 There is more than one successful airline 'business model' in the world. So it would seem... Porter's investors should be praying this thing never leaves the ground...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebean Posted September 2, 2008 Author Share Posted September 2, 2008 There is more than one successful airline 'business model' in the world. Show me a list of an independent, (non CPA), start-ups operating aircraft greater than 70 seats in Canada over the past 10 years with audited financials to back up your claim. Making money in July and August doesn't cut it. I could duct tape a lawnchair to a Canada goose in July and August and make money in the airline business. I can think of one in the US. Allegiant. That's it. As for the rest? Show me the money. Until then, don't confuse cash flow with profitability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 in the world. There you go again, avoiding the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebean Posted September 2, 2008 Author Share Posted September 2, 2008 There you go again, avoiding the topic. I'm sure there are business models that might work will in Bhutan, Djibouti or Azerbaijan. Perhaps you can fill us in on all your successes in these areas. However, I think we're generally referring to models that work in places that readers of this forum would be generally familiar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
better4me Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 I'm sure there are business models that might work will in Bhutan, Djibouti or Azerbaijan. Perhaps you can fill us in on all your successes in these areas. However, I think we're generally referring to models that work in places that readers of this forum would be generally familiar with. Skyservice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 Lufthansa Singapore Qantass .... .... .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 Qantass.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 Ever wonder why WJ changed from 125 seats to 120 seats on the -200's within a year or two of launch? I believe that it was a bit longer than that but I do believe the deciding factor was staffing - only 3 flight attendants required at 120 seats vs. 4 for 125: Between 1996 and 1999, WestJet had informally (at least three times) and formally (twice) requested an exemption from the CARs to operate with only 3 flight attendants with up to 125 passengers on board their 737-200 series aircraft. Notice of Proposed Amendments (NPA 2004-017) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebean Posted September 3, 2008 Author Share Posted September 3, 2008 Qantass.... Great!!!! Show me Skyservice's standalone audited numbers for the charter operation. Does Sunwing have another air operation that we don't know about that allows it to dilute fixed costs? We all know how RootsAir worked out for RP. $36million blown in about 33 days. Here's the criteria for you again. Read carefully. Show me a list of an independent, (non CPA), start-ups operating aircraft greater than 70 seats in Canada over the past 10 years with audited financials to back up your claim. As for 125 vs 120 seats, it was determined very early on that those last five seats were the cause of a great many complaints due their lack of leg room and the inability to recline. The f/a issue was a bonus. It was better to eliminate the seats to eliminate the problem of an inconsistent product. Happy customers are repeat customers. Unhappy customers tell everyone they know how awful the service/product is. In a market of 33m, it doesn't take long for the word to spread. See Jetsgo and Icarus Air for details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evinrude Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 As for 125 vs 120 seats, it was determined very early on that those last five seats were the cause of a great many complaints due their lack of leg room and the inability to recline. The f/a issue was a bonus. It was better to eliminate the seats to eliminate the problem of an inconsistent product. Happy customers are repeat customers. Unhappy customers tell everyone they know how awful the service/product is. I am sorry but you don't know what you are talking about. The F/A ratio was the issue and not your customer satisfaction. Nobody calls the minister to have the law change for customer satisfaction. Wesjtet was persistent (TRIED TWICE) in getting this law change for shareholder's satisfaction. Westjet lost because it had no support from other companies aroud the table. In the end CUPE won. Now that I think of it, how come you quit coming to CASO after dec 2001? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebean Posted September 3, 2008 Author Share Posted September 3, 2008 I am sorry but you don't know what you are talking about. The F/A ratio was the issue and not your customer satisfaction. Nobody calls the minister to have the law change for customer satisfaction. Wesjtet was persistent (TRIED TWICE) in getting this law change for shareholder's satisfaction. Westjet lost because it had no support from other companies aroud the table. In the end CUPE won. Now that I think of it, how come you quit coming to CASO after dec 2001? CASO? What was that? Have you considered that the 1 in 50 case might have been more for longer term planning given future, (at least at that time), fleet types and configs, and not necessarily for the immediate gratification of trying to squeeze 125 seats on a -200? Regardless of the "one in fifty" outcome vis a vis the -200's, I think you would have seen those 5 seats disappear. Those seats at the back of the -200's had about 29 inch pitch and didn't recline. They provided guests who were unlucky enough to sit there with a completely different and inferior experience than the other 120 passengers on board. It made for a very difficult marketing proposition as the product was inconsistent. It was well known that on full flights, there would be at least 5 very unhappy people. It's kind of like being known for the "special sauce", but not bothering to put it on 4% of your hamburgers. Inconsistency is the kiss of death and those seats were completely inconsistent with the product offering. Regardless, you are correct in that CUPE had an agenda and they got their way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpy Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Doesn't SunWing offset their slow summer time by sending more than half their fleet over to XL Airways? This could be ominous.... XL In Trouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebean Posted September 3, 2008 Author Share Posted September 3, 2008 Doesn't SunWing offset their slow summer time by sending more than half their fleet over to XL Airways? This could be ominous.... XL In Trouble Last I checked, C-GOAF, C-FTAE and C-FTAH are at XL, G-GLBW and perhaps another one is at Eurocypria. I doubt either are long for this world. It's common knowledge a slew of euro LCC's are on their last legs. I hope they've been staying on top of lease payments, airframe and engine reserves and are ensuring the aircraft are being satisfactorily maintained. "While acknowledging it is a challenging market, the XL Leisure Group is experiencing strong trading, with bookings for 2009 already outperforming last year.” A classic line. Reminds me of what C3000 said before their collapse. They darn well better be outperforming last years bookings because they've added a ton of capacity to fill this year. So far, the strategy is simply to blow it out by way of $50 transcon fares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakelad Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Airlines to lose US$5.2 billion in 2008 due to spikes in fuel costs: IATA September 3, 2008 - Canadian Press MONTREAL - Soaring fuel costs and a sluggish global economy have created a perfect storm for the world's airlines, which are expected to lose more than US$5.2 billion in 2008, according to a forecast released Wednesday by the industry. North American carriers are expected to suffer the most, accounting for US$5 billion of the total loss, the International Air Transport Association said in a revised forecast. That doesn't include billions of dollars in restructuring costs. That will reverse a $5.6-billion profit in 2007, IATA said. 'Airlines face a situation that is worse than the aftermath of Sept. 11, 2001..' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Meanwhile, on another news site... Canadian airlines expected to buck trend of global losses set to exceed $5 billion 3 Sep, 6:10 PM MONTREAL - Canadian airlines appear to have some insulation against a perfect storm that will force the world's airlines to post losses exceeding US$5.2 billion this year due to because of soaring fuel costs and a sluggish economy, an airline-watching agency says. American carriers are tapped to suffer the most, accounting for the bulk of global airline losses, the International Air Transport Association said Wednesday in a revised industry forecast. The huge loss, which doesn't account for billions of dollars in restructuring costs at airlines, will reverse a $5.6-billion profit in 2007, IATA said. "We are in a perfect storm of rising costs, particularly oil, and falling demand," IATA director general Giovanni Bisignani said in a news conference from the association's Montreal headquarters. Bisignani identified Air Canada (TSX:AC.B ) as one of the most profitable network carriers last year, earning a record $433 million in operating income. The airline's EBITDAR, a measure of operating cash flow, was 10.9 per cent for the year and nine per cent in the latest quarter. Canada's largest airline - and its domestic rival WestJet (TSX:WJA) - are both expected to remain profitable in 2008 as they struggle to cut costs and impose surcharges to offset higher fuel expenses. The two airlines have young fleets of fuel-efficient aircraft and benefit from a relatively strong domestic market. To top that off, Air Canada has promised to cut capacity by seven per cent this fall, laying off about 2,000 employees. Full story here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flapsforty Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Evinrude, I'm sorry but YOU don't know what you are talking about. There are 4 F/A's on the 600 (119 seats) only 3 required by law. We have four so we can keep up our SERVICE levels. We have asked for the 1 in 50 rule in case someone gets sick and we can't find an immediate replacement, so we don't have to cap flights or cancel them so we can keep up our SERVICE level. CUPE has fouhgt this and won, so they can keep jobs, thus serving themselves. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evinrude Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Evinrude, I'm sorry but YOU don't know what you are talking about. There are 4 F/A's on the 600 (119 seats) only 3 required by law. We have four so we can keep up our SERVICE levels. We have asked for the 1 in 50 rule in case someone gets sick and we can't find an immediate replacement, so we don't have to cap flights or cancel them so we can keep up our SERVICE level. CUPE has fouhgt this and won, so they can keep jobs, thus serving themselves. Cheers OBVIOUSLY you don't understand the history of this issue. I would strongly recommend you talk to your management of that period. God, your management was so desperate that they tried to convince ACPA and ALPA. If your company decided over the years (8 years after) that they required 4 F/A's for 119 pax so that customers would repeat the Westjet experience so be it (good on them) but don't tell me I don't know the issue. For your info ATAC (first strike against them but that is another story) was against this change because a majority of its members would have to spend more money to crew an aircraft (F/A's) when doing flights from CDG to YYZ via YMX or from LGW-YMX-YYZ or any double stop back in the homeland. By dropping pax off at the first stop in Canada you can reduce the amount of F/A's whereas with the Westjet proposal those international carriers could not . In Canada we have a ratio (F/A to Passengers) for actual live passengers not for empty chairs as we do not require the chairs to get off in case of an evacuation. Do you get it? Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canus Chinookus Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 I believe it's FlapsForty who is right here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Actually, Evinrude has a pretty good handle on the history of the issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canus Chinookus Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebean Posted September 4, 2008 Author Share Posted September 4, 2008 Actually, Evinrude has a pretty good handle on the history of the issue... I don't recall anyone named Evinrude at any of the weekly executive meetings at WJ over the first 10 years of the company's existence..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60N30W Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Don't think anyone remembers a guy called "the bean" being at any meetings during the first 10 years either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebean Posted September 4, 2008 Author Share Posted September 4, 2008 Don't think anyone remembers a guy called "the bean" being at any meetings during the first 10 years either! So...unless Evenrude's initials are TM, CB, DB, SC, BL, FR, (or for a short time, DC, SS or GD), I don't recall who this mystery insider is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakelad Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Zoom Staff Hired by Rising Sunwing Ten pilots begin training only days after their old employer was grounded Sep 06, 2008 - Toronto Star MONTREAL–Sunwing is hiring pilots and flight attendants who formerly worked at Zoom Airlines as the discount travel company expands service to winter hot spots. Ten Zoom pilots began training Monday, just days after the Ottawa-based vacation airline suddenly stopped flying, stranding thousands of passengers and causing hundreds of layoffs, says Sunwing vice-president Lawrence Elliott. "We've offered positions to a lot of their staff," he said in an interview. The privately owned company expects to hire about 300 flight attendants, including up to 100 who worked at Zoom. Jobs could also be available for Air Canada employees who are slated to be laid off in November when the airline reduces its capacity by 7 per cent. 'Ernst & Young recently named Sunwing's owners Colin and Stephen Hunter as entrepreneurs of the year after reviewing the company's books' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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