deicer Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Mitch.... After years of working 3x3, and knowing what it's like to be in perpetual jet lag,,,,, I'll ax you if no one else will Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 There has been quite a bit researched on the topic of circadian rythms and what can be done to combat them. It was started 30 years ago by NASA to try and judge what might happen in space. They did talk to aviation people but the biggest thing that they found was that there were 3 ways to treat shift work. 1. Move shifts by one or two hours at a time. ie. work 0800-1600 on Monday 1000-1800 on Tuesday, 1200-2000 on Wednesday, 1400-2200 on Thursday and 1600-2400 on Friday. 2. Work a steady shift such as permanent midnights 3. Try and ignore the effects of shift changing. In all cases they suggested that you do the same with your days off. ie. If you are on steady midnights then stay up all night on your days off and vacation too. Like that would happen! Since #1 and #2 are not appealing we end up just doing #3. And since in many, many occupations there is no avoidance of shift work then #3 is what we work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I, Like Mitch and many others here, worked midnights for almost 20 years. I suffered from chronic fatigue and all the associated crap. I have now been working Mon - Fri days since September and can I ever say that I feel like a different person. We in maintenance are required to take training in human factors affecting maintenance. While all of the ideas expressed in the training are pretty much spot on, none of them are practical in the real world environment so far as rest goes for a shift worker. Somehow i think the boss would not appreciate the 2 hour nap at 3 am. Having watched maintenance being performed and not being personally involved I have also noted over the last few years that the MISTAKES that ARE made quite possibly would not happen if the worker was rested and perhaps at the top of his circadian rythm. Whenever i fill out an incident report I always express this as a contributing factor in the incident if it occurrs on the overnight shift. Quite frankly at 3 am we are the walking dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Boestar; Quite frankly at 3 am we are the walking dead. The maintenance floor and hangar is not the only place that occurs.... It is encouraging to read (from Fido) that human factors is part of the "course" but until it is no good just learning about it - it has to be taken seriously in terms of scheduling and rest periods. Re the 2hr "nap" at 3am - "Controlled Rest on the Flight Deck" is now part of the CARS, which only recognizes what has been going on since long haul routes first were flown. I think any shift work should accomodate the reality of circadian rhythm but the economic reality bumps up against the productivity "loss". Thing is, rested employees produce better, in shorter times, than fatigued employees but that is a very tough sell indeed, in any industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I, by no means meant to imply that it was the Hangar floor only. The same applies to anyone who works god awful shifts for a living. While I "got used to" working shifts, I now realize what it was doing to my body and mind. Unfortunately the realities of the business don't allow us the luxury of that 3am nap or some of the other "recommendations" that come from the human Factors Training. There just are not enough hours to allow for it. When I walk the floor at night I can see where people are at the bottom of their rythm, it's very noticable. While a Red Bull may help for a while it really is not a healthy solution. The nap would be preferable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canus Chinookus Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 after trying the 'NASA naps' on a few occasions, I can't believe how well it works. Personally, I can't sleep on a plane, or car for that matter, but even 15 minutes of 'nodding' makes a difference. It should be allowed for maintenance as fas I'm concerned. Why not grab a nap during a nightly lull? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 If we flight attendants are caught closing our eyes for even a minute, we are subject to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. There are exceptions to this rule, but that's generally the case. So on a 13 hour duty day with 3 or 4 flight legs that began at 1am YYC time in YYT, if I feel the need to take a 15 minute nap when there's some down time on one of the flights, I could be fired for doing so if someone were to complain to management. Doesn't make much sense if, like our onboard announcements says, "safety is our top priority". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 boestar; I, by no means meant to imply that it was the Hangar floor only. The same applies to anyone who works god awful shifts for a living. Yes, understood that right away, sorry, didn't mean to imply that your comment was exclusionary - but there are elements in this industry with significant misapprehensions about fatigue in mission-critical work such as maintenance and flying ops who have no concept of how to manage this aspect of human factors. Graveyard shifts in most industries don't have the same kind of risk-associated outcomes that aviation and medicine have. It is time to rid this industry at least, (if not the medical profession too), of the stigma associated with "sleeping on the job". Far too much is known about fatigue to continue to have business ignore the risks and costs to corporations, shareholders and employees. It is time to manage fatigue by intelligently employing the research extant so that both the organization AND the shareholders prosper while reducing, not increasing risk of incident or accident. moeman, can you take a quick nap in between turns before the passengers board? I recall doing that a lot on the '9 and the 320. Another misapprehension is that it is only long haul and time changes that raise fatigue levels and of course it is not - a 14hr domestic day will leave any crew as exhausted as an overseas depending upon the day. A Carribean turn is not as demanding as a four to six-leg day through weather with time changes. I recall when Vancouver crews on the 727 and 320 would do four legs with a 6am departure from St. John's Nfld to Vancouver. We got up at 11pm Vancouver time and by the time we were on descent into Vancouver, nobody was alert. That was long before "controlled rest" was legal so that legistlation is a great improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 moeman, can you take a quick nap in between turns before the passengers board? I recall doing that a lot on the '9 and the 320. Another misapprehension is that it is only long haul and time changes that raise fatigue levels and of course it is not - a 14hr domestic day will leave any crew as exhausted as an overseas depending upon the day. A Carribean turn is not as demanding as a four to six-leg day through weather with time changes. I recall when Vancouver crews on the 727 and 320 would do four legs with a 6am departure from St. John's Nfld to Vancouver. We got up at 11pm Vancouver time and by the time we were on descent into Vancouver, nobody was alert. That was long before "controlled rest" was legal so that legistlation is a great improvement. Don, Yes, we can do that. Unfortunately, if the turn times are long enough to do so, it usually necessitates a change of aircraft which means you have to wait in the aiport for the other aircraft to arrive because the one you brought in is going somewhere else in short order. It's not like the old days when we'd all stick together for the pairing and usually keep the aircraft for more than one leg. It's all about efficiency these days, so with turn times being as short as possible now, and understandably so, this means we don't have the luxury of staying onboard to have a nap like we used to. And we're not allowed to sleep in uniform in the terminal either, so that rules out another option for us. If we must sleep between flights, we have to make our way to a crew room, if there is one. We have recently managed to introduce crew rest on long-haul flights where we can actually sleep in last-sold seats that are put aside for us. Hopefully we can crack that door open a little wider in our next contract, it being a no-cost item and all. If safety really is AC's top priority, there should not be the threat of dismissal if someone finds themselves in need of a little cat nap in order to be as fresh as possible at the end of a 13 hour day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specs Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It is time to rid this industry at least, (if not the medical profession too), of the stigma associated with "sleeping on the job". An accountant friend of mine attended a company sponsored Canadian Mental Health Association workshop on Stress about a yr ago. She's a hard nosed, driven senior exec type with a major corporation we all know so as you might expect she fluffed off most of the info presented. Some of what was presented sunk in enough though that she maybe now understands and appreciates the threat a bit more and sees it as a real concern. What I thought was interesting though was what they took away from the seminar. It was a little credit card size stress meter. You place your thumb in the middle of the card for ten seconds and the thumbpad changes colour after 10 seconds. The colour indicates your stress level. Green = relaxed, blue = calm, red = stressed and black = tense. She gave one to me and I keep it in my office as a curio. Sounds hokey and it probably is but there is some measure of accurate biometric correlation at work here nonetheless. Enough so that it has become a commonly studied item in our office. People stop by and they do test it. So far I have yet to see anybody disagree with the result. It has given them pause occasionally and highlighted what exactly stress is and what they feel. It has taken the concern semi mainstream in our office and reduced the stigma a bit I think. A simple but very effective awareness tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 If we flight attendants are caught closing our eyes for even a minute, we are subject to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. ....(If) I feel the need to take a 15 minute nap when there's some down time on one of the flights, I could be fired for doing so if someone were to complain to management. Hey! I know who you are!! You're "dozey"----the one who always chooses back galley so they can start "napping" 5 minutes after initial service is finished which is about 15 minutes after initial cruise FL is obtained. "Close your eyes"!! You're usually somnambulent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I thought we were on a break? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newgirl Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Specs In the 70's the big thing was mood rings. It was quite interesting how the colours changed depending on whether you were on or off duty. I should dig mine out of the jewelery box and see if it still works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I thought we were on a break? Oh! I forgot. Okay. Never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnaker Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Don, Yes, we can do that. Unfortunately, if the turn times are long enough to do so, it usually necessitates a change of aircraft which means you have to wait in the aiport for the other aircraft to arrive because the one you brought in is going somewhere else in short order. It's not like the old days when we'd all stick together for the pairing and usually keep the aircraft for more than one leg. It's all about efficiency these days, so with turn times being as short as possible now, and understandably so, this means we don't have the luxury of staying onboard to have a nap like we used to. And we're not allowed to sleep in uniform in the terminal either, so that rules out another option for us. If we must sleep between flights, we have to make our way to a crew room, if there is one. We have recently managed to introduce crew rest on long-haul flights where we can actually sleep in last-sold seats that are put aside for us. Hopefully we can crack that door open a little wider in our next contract, it being a no-cost item and all. If safety really is AC's top priority, there should not be the threat of dismissal if someone finds themselves in need of a little cat nap in order to be as fresh as possible at the end of a 13 hour day. At WestJet we have an approved FA rest program designed to keep our FA's alert. It's a detailed system, spelled out in the COM and FAM and it does get used. I also brief it when I'm working a redeye as the safety topic. I find it strange that AC wouldn't have this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 There is a negotiated rest program, but it only kicks in when a single flight segment exceeds 8 hours. We have two seats that are considered "last sold", but those seats are quite often sold out so we don't have the benefit of using them. There's a lot of room for improvement. Hopefully we can negotiate a better system in our next contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnaker Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 There is a negotiated rest program, but it only kicks in when a single flight segment exceeds 8 hours. We have two seats that are considered "last sold", but those seats are quite often sold out so we don't have the benefit of using them. There's a lot of room for improvement. Hopefully we can negotiate a better system in our next contract. Wow. Our flt ops team, with safety, just handed us a memo one day last year. Why wouldn't AC want their FA's alert for when they need them most? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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