Guest rattler Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 You are assuming that this was the one and only leg for the crew in the duty period you describe. That is a big assumption. Canada has some of the most lax (read worst) rules in the world when it comes to augmentation. So was it part of a longer pairing or ?????? What are the facts?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 The duty days can also be stretched by commuting times. Every week I bring a few fellows to YYZ from out West who are heading to Brazil etc. that day. Can't be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 The duty days can also be stretched by commuting times. Every week I bring a few fellows to YYZ from out West who are heading to Brazil etc. that day. Can't be fun. No doubt duty days of 14hours are way too long (should be 10 or so max without augmentation but: Are we talking about crew dead heading to operate a flight or crew commuting to where their base is (vs where they live) to operate a flight? Reason I ask, is that pilots who commute (live away from their bases) are firm in their conviction at their commuting time does not impede their operational skills and therefore the time spent commuting before their duty times starts should not be part of the consideration. Then I hear people talking about the time dead heading (crew positioning) and the extra time there. Seems to me if one is a "null" effect then so should the other and VV of course if one has a "Negative" effect. Used to be that crew positioning (dead heading) to operate a flight had some sort of formula applied that added to their overall duty time, thus it being taken into account re. their overall operating limits. What is the case now?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumbi Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I wish "all the best" to the incapacitated first officer! Sincerely, Gumbi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 The duty days can also be stretched by commuting times. Personal choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Moeman, Each crewmember is responsible for his/her fitness for duty. That you observe some commuters on your flights is nice but what about local guys who drive 3 hours on icy roads to YYZ or are up all night with a fussy baby etc etc. I think we are talking about what happens when the clock starts running. Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Moeman, Each crewmember is responsible for his/her fitness for duty. That you observe some commuters on your flights is nice but what about local guys who drive 3 hours on icy roads to YYZ or are up all night with a fussy baby etc etc. I think we are talking about what happens when the clock starts running. Chico Maybe we should audit commuting pilots' schedules, compare it to what flights they actually commute on, and see how long their duty days are when they commute. Then let's argue for shorter contractual duty days and see where we get. Driving to the airport in YYC or YVR, parking, waiting for your flight, perhaps having to wait for the next, then flying 3-5 hours to YYZ, waiting for your first flight of the day, preparing for said flight......has to put some extra strain on a pilot's abilities to perform at his/her peak. It would certainly mess me up. I've been through the fussy babies and stressful drives to work, but when I felt it wasn't meant to be, I'd book off sick. I couldn't do that because I was too tired from commuting. I just couldn't. The thread has slipped a bit into this area, and I apologize for keeping it there a little longer. And it probably has little or nothing to do with this situation. But you have to admit that spending 6 or 7 hours (or more) getting to work has to be a consideration when you're talking about fitness for duty. IMO, the clock starts when you leave the house for work. Are there any "rules" about what you can or cannot do to get to your place of employment and still be considered "fresh"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 The law requires crews to be fit for duty and not fatigued. That is a personal responsibility that comes with the discipline of the job and nobody is monitoring anyone - it's just expected. There is no law against it just as there is no law against crying babies, kids with flu when one is flying the next day, (been there), being stuck in traffic or commuting to work. But fair or not, the decision to commute is a risk assessment one, not an operational one. It is a choice whereas the others are circumstance which one must manage in accordance with the law. But the moment an incident or, heaven forbid an accident occurs, that crews' life is an open book for all including various powerful elements which have as their primary goal the displacement of blame. If they are able to discover that one started one's trip from say, Toronto to Zurich, commuting from Vancouver, that is going to be part of the discovery process which process, as we are aware, gets a life of it's own very quickly. That is the risk; Commuters, by virtue of their choice and the facts, assess it as acceptable and it probably is. An hour's commute to one's work by airplane can leave one fresher than a drive to the airport. But at some point, as in the example above, the risk is somewhat higher. I have known of such commutes and wonder if a couple of hours' rest in what passes for crew facilities at some locations would mitigate the risk if not the early onset of fatigue. It may for the individual as we are all different, but such mitigations would likely be extremely difficult to demonstrate clearly and convincingly in the oak chair. Just my 2c fwiw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I would argue that a commuter should consider commuting time in whether they are fit for duty. If the commuting time adds enough time to their duty day that were they actually working those extra hours they would book crew rest, they should be honour-bound to show up at their base of employment early enough to give themselves enough prone crew rest to show up for work refreshed the next day. It shouldn't be a judgement call. Seriously, how can ACPA argue that the duty day limitations are inadequate when their members are allowed to add hour upon hour to those duty days at their discretion, yet the thought of adding any time at the end of their day due to unforeseen events makes them scream for justice? I just don't get it. Either you're too fatigued due to the insufficient contractual limitations placed upon you, or you're not. You can't have it both ways. It's one thing to consider "normal" commuting times for longer drives or perhaps less restful nights with cranky babies when making your decisions about how fit you are for duty, but when a pilot (or FA for that matter) chooses to extend their day by many hours so they can live somewhere other than their base of employment, how can ACPA credibly raise duty day limitations as a safety concern and still support those who choose to flaunt their "right" to commute? How can CUPE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 We are off topic, perhaps a bulk move of fatigue issues to another thread would be possible for admin. I will say that commuting has been a pandora's box forever. I remember doing a CCP monitor on a fellow who was checking an FO. The FO was a commuter and was there in flight planning well ahead and prepared. The CCP had a flat on the 401 about 5 km from the airport, but no cell phone. No show. Who had more stress? Transport did at one time attempt to include commuting time in duty time, it died pretty quickly, especially when it was pointed out just how ridiculous the rest of the regulation was. It was pretty clear that the request for change had come from airline management and not from any safety review. As in all things, moderation is key. Commuting from Montreal to Toronto is very different than more distant or international choices. But then, I believe even RM was commuting from LHR to work, so... Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 British Tabloids (Scroll half way down linked page) Yikes !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AIP Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Although it is a rare event for me to agree with any thing AIP says, on this point, he is spot on. Ouch, Ya cut me deep Shrek ! ! ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Well if you are commuting tomorrow, beware: February is starting like a lion. Heavy snow forecast for YYZ, YOW, YUL and the rest of the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 There will be a lot of commuters pre-positioning tonight, HOWEVER, IRROPS is a time when commuters can be worth their weight in gold, as the company has a pre-positioned crew member who doesn't have to deadhead in the throng of displaced travellers to recover a flight. That is, of course, presuming the individual is in a position to work. Taking drafts to work is a very divisive issue in the union. YYC, YEG, YOW, YHZ are all significant 'commuter bases'. Lately, YYT isn't doing too bad for itself, either. Safe travels all, wherever you're trying to get over the next few days.... Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 I am pretty sure this is not the 15 minutes of fame this AC pilot wanted to receive. Today on a morning talk show, the female host mentioned the incident and her plans to fly somewhere over the weekend and "hope my pilot doesn't have a nervous breakdown during the flight". I couldn't believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest woxof Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Its funny how these people think how tiring it must be for anyone who commutes. They fight the traffic and snow squalls from Barrie and are obviously rested when they arrive to work yet when I was commuting at the very same time, I was sleeping in my seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnaker Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 I find the same in my commute most of the time. I drive 15 minutes to YVR, park and hop in the airplane. After reading the paper, watching the news, having a nap, I then show up to my gate early and prepared. I also have way less days on the road by overnighting at home. I'm not nearly as fatigued as others after a 4 day pairing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Spinnaker, woxof; I don't think you'll find serious disagreement with your points. I should think that the commutes are reasonable 99% of the time and the other 1% affects cars as well as airplanes, (except if you're commuting from Nanaimo and the Dash8 doesn't make it in... I've known of guys who will get on in places like the Caribbean, southern US or western Canada to commute to Toronto and then go flying to Europe, (I haven't seen or heard of it to Asia)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 (I haven't seen or heard of it to Asia)... One of my very good friends commuted from YVR to Hong Kong. He flys for Cathay. The commute was really hard on him and when we visited him we thought that he was aging very prematurely. He would go to Hong Kong and then do a 14 -16 day stint , flying all over the place, and then commute back to YVR. He told us it took him at least four days to get his body back to "Canadian" time. The money was good but what about health and family life??? That type of commute was NOT for me. My drive to YYZ was close to 2 hours and the only time it really affected me was when I had to do a 7:00 am departure.I would have to leave no later than 4:00am but normally wanted to get there with 90 minutes before departure so left at 3:30am, which meant I got up at 3:00am. I did not have a problem...if....the sectors were not too long but the YYZ to YVR sectors were brutal and when we got to YVR I just went to my room and crashed. Avoided that flight as much as possible. On some pairings we left YYC at about 3:00am (YYZ time) so we could get back to YYZ at 7:00am. The drive home, into the morning sun, was unbearable and most times I pulled into a reststop and just fell asleep in the car. Sometimes I think it would have been nice to live close to the airport but.............the noise !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Only four days to recover? Everyone's different - lucky guy. It usually took me (and most I knew doing the flying) a week to feel normal from the London-Bombay flights from Vancouver, (a week to ten days away from home). It was always about the same from Hong Kong but the cycle for us was a short layover, (about 16 hours! - land after suppertime, out before lunch next day). Non-aviators think that pilots have "special tricks" to get used to time zones. That's the same kind of magical thinking about physiology of the body that believes we can stay up for 20 hours (according to the CARS) and be alert to fly an airplane. I think what happens is, the mind and body get numb to the fatigue and one notices only after stopping it for a while. There is something to the notion that but for the breathalyzer test driving home from the airport after an overseas, we'd be legally intoxicated, given the alertness level. It is however, a fact established by abundant research that adrenaline initially increases alertness in any circumstances involving an emergency but the ability to continue to cope with an extended abnormality very quickly drops off to a level below intial alertness. Financial pressures being what they are with thinner and thinner resources and demands for higher productivity for less reward, all contribute to the now well-known "chronic" fatigue associated with high work/alertness levels and little sleep. I should think that executives of large companies (and perhaps students?!) would be first in this group but, given relatively recent accidents in the US, (Kentucky, Little Rock), and the far higher demands for productivity without any comprehension or even awareness of what such demands can produce, fatigue among flight crews may be higher now than at any other time in the industry. The difficulty is, measurement is always subjective. There have been ways to clinically measure alertness through Beta-wave monitoring but a quick, and accurate measure of alertness is still not available and the matter remains subjective - not a good way to do it. Leaving the flight safety question aside, I wonder how much productivity is lost to demands for higher productivity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canus Chinookus Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 I have a 'pairing hangover' for 2 days after coming home after an eastern pairing, a 3 hour time zone and 4-5 days on the road, I can't imagine a recovery from an overseas pairing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Ask some of the Mechs on this board what it is like working midnights and then trying to swing back onto day shift or something else. The drive home after being up all night in the hangar is the same as doing a Trans-At. I know from experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Mitch, re Fido's post...betcha know a bit... The A330 fuel-leak - work done between the hours of midnight and 5am - not sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I was just gonna say...Thanks Fido. Right on the money! The sad thing is that with so much known of the adverse effects, so little is done to protect us from being there. ...and then the comment that usually stops all conversation is "well, look what doctors do!"...So because the medical profession cottons to that nonsense for some reason, then I guess it's all ok for the rest of us lesser beings. If you were to ask me, I say it isn't ok! Not for pilots, not for AME's, not for doctors, and not for anyone who needs to perform correctly.... but nobody asks me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 "well, look what doctors do!" Given the fatality rates, it is the medical profession that needs to learn from professional aviators and NOT the other way around. I have always kept the thought-experiment in mind that any executive, including institutional investors and industry experts with large organizations, should in their meetings, have to deal with a dozen or so disparate but demanding interruptions while also dealing with important agenda items before starting the meeting, and then be kept awake for 16 hours with two meals, coffee, two, two-hour breaks of sleep in a noisy bunk in turbulence and very limited space to walk in, before they actually begin the board meeting. Then, in say, ten minutes, they'd have to remember the agenda items to make critical decisions upon which the corporations' survival may or may not depend but they won't know beforehand whether those decisions are in fact critical or even legal but the decisions made will have to be right the first time because if they're wrong, the lawyers, the prosecutors, the media and the shareholders are going to have years to dissect the decisions made and everyone will have the right answer. All executive board decisions plus all conversations in the offices and the boardroom meetings will be recorded and available to all interested parties including the internet. Everyone's an expert when they're not in the seat. I emphasize once again that there must be a balance between the demands for productivity and the need to consider the human element in the profit-making enterprise. This applies to all enterprises but especially to aviation. The signs of stress are there for those with eyes. Do not assume that these principles are looked after, for, where there are significant cost-cutting pressures, these aspects may not be examined properly or even at all. Where there is no immediate effect, it is easy to cut cost, demand longer hours for less pay etc, until either people leave, (or don't come back), or an accident occurs. It is called, "fine-tuning the odds until something breaks". It is a principle as old as commercial aviation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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