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Can you imagine the whipsawing in 2009? sad.gif ACPA will offer to fly the RJs for 20k less per year, and ALPA will offer to fly the narrow bodies per the Capt's pay scale.

me thinks it's going to be ugly sad.gifsad.gif

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"Has there ever been a regional carrier that made it "on their own.""

"GX"

Before I left Jazz for the mainline I attended one of the roadshows the Mr. Randal was giving across the country during the merger. One pilot questioned him about merging two profitable regional's (Nova and Air Ontario ) with two very questionable ones. He mentioned although Air Ontario was showing a profit they were a very centralized regional with one fleet type no expansion plans or new routes and very small compared to the likes of CRA. He also mentioned that AC lost confidence in the airline after the Dryden crash regarding operating any jet equipment.

I just remember GX being this little company, so how big were they?

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"He mentioned although Air Ontario was showing a profit they were a very centralized regional with one fleet type no expansion plans or new routes and very small compared to the likes of CRA. He also mentioned that AC lost confidence in the airline after the Dryden crash regarding operating any jet equipment."

For greater clarity, the "GX" to which I refer actually existed prior to AC buying in.

In the newly deregulated environment it was AC’s fear of GX’s potential that lead them to buy in and take control. From that moment forward GX became directionally challenged and a mirror of AC’s rudderless & doomed business model.

The causal factors that lead to Dryden are wide ranging and complex. If one wants to play the “blame game”, AC certainly shares responsibility for the crash as much as any other individual or group. Ultimately, the decision to relieve AO of fan ac had nothing to do with anyone’s confidence but was instead motivated by internal political forces at AC.

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Guest floatrrr

It's amusing how anyone actually thought the GS snowball would have a chance you know where. I have NO faith in the process. Process of what exactly?

A company like a bad parent that seeks to continually erode contract content by pitting one group of employees against another. Why would they ever want to sign up for such a thing?A pair of pilot groups like two competitive two year olds in a sandbox fighting over who gets to play with the biggest toy? Two unions that have repeatedly tried to screw each other over the years, with one evidently having more success over the other.

It will be a race to the bottom, in 09'. It won't be anyone on the top half of either list that will suffer all that much. Unfortunate, but now the focus switches to "how do we position ourselves to achieve the maximum amount of airframes in our fleet for the next contract period."

Right now , it's anyones guess as to what is going to happen. Jazz spun off, dismantled, cut loose from ACE , allowed to grow un inhibited... Mainline left to fester in the pit of unprofitability, all on it's own until the next round of CCAA.

This is the last we'll hear of GS in a few years. Farewell.

Edited by floatrrr
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Hey Floatrrr et al

First off the term "Global Solution" is a misnomer as this really only deals with issues within the "ACE Family" of units. Global? Not in my view.

Although noble and obviously needed, the purpose of "GS" was to help mitigate whipsawing of the pilot groups in 2009 towards concessions of lower wages & working conditions by getting together as one unified voice representing the pilot groups.

This has not been achieved and the company now knows it. In fact the company (Ace & Jazz) is probably giving its upper management bonuses as I type for defusing this potential wage issue for 2009. Great work by them...so please don't laugh when they take full credit (read bonuses) :-(

So were do we go from here? Simple... our separate ways.

The Jazz ALAPA group will start to plan for wages and working conditions on all types of aircraft available in the market place but are simply restricted (dare I call it "scoped") by the Capacity Purchase Agreement signed in house between units of ACE. ....ya that's not too obvious and will work well for the general public and the share price thingy. Moving on.... they will try and secure the next biggest airframes within the Ace Family in the Embraers. They will simply offer to fly them at rates the mainline boys have already refused to date. mmmm the status pay thing will save millions of $ in wages & millions more in conversion training over time for Jazz (and ACE).

ACPA will be staging an Armageddon type defense as they took it hard up the wazzoo during CCAA and will be looking to recapture wages that they lost during the last round of "negotiations"... you know the one were the company said how much they would have to cut out of the payroll going forward. Very nice of them. They may even give up the lowly EMB to secure higher wages and better conditions for the 777 & 787's that will become the backbone of AC's fleet in the next ten years.

To qoute Newton's 3rd law.... " Every action has an equal and opposite reaction." and I suspect we will get to see this law in action in 2009/10.

Maybe the company (and pilots perhaps) will roll the dice with the all encompassing "Arbitration Process" that seems to be the rage these days with management. (You know the one where the wages are set and the arbitrator (in a big showy court room type atmosphere) decides whom should get to fly what planes based on costs. Then after the planes show up the pilots refuse to bid it and the company is forced to raise the wage to get bodies into seats. - Man I laughed my head off at the shear lunacy (or should I say brilliance!) of the process. Yes… I see another bonus for Management.:-(

Throw in the Olympic Torch and its' going to be a heck of a fire in 2010... not sure who's house will be left standing... too bad really as we could have at least bought some insurance now.

Enough said... sorry to take up bandwidth.

Slim

Fasten Belts... ON

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I don't agree. The difference this time around is that AC doesn't own Jazz. They have a contractual relationship and that's it. They currently share the same parent but that will not be the case in 2009. The scope clause is still in place and there will be no CCAA to pry it open. It will not be a repeat of 2003.

imo

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Everyone seems to forget the "Star Alliance". Look at United, Open Skies, and traffic (profit) management.

Why isn't or why can't United be scoped?

It's just a theme but, in the new reality Jazz may well become a provider for United, AC etc. Competition for the Jazz pilot will come from the US Regionals. So, if the Jazz MEC offered status pay and were to include the EMB in the mix the ROI would provide the competitive incentive necessary to the achievement of Jazz pilot objectives.

Remember, those sitting on the highest shelf have the furthest to fall.

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Remember, those sitting on the highest shelf have the furthest to fall.
And may I add. . . those sitting on a lower shelf should watch for falling rocks. wink.gif
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.... they will try and secure the next biggest airframes within the Ace Family in the Embraers. They will simply offer to fly them at rates the mainline boys have already refused to date. mmmm the status pay thing will save millions of $ in wages & millions more in conversion training over time for Jazz (and ACE).

The Jazz guys love to talk up the EMB's. You'll have to remember that the Embraer Fleet (by 2009) will be substantial, no comparison to the CRJ.

For ACE to transfer the EMB's to Jazz, it would mean a massive reduction at Air Canada and a 'show stopper' for ACPA.

I think the Jazz group is dreaming in technicolor, if they think they'll get the EMB's.

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Guest floatrrr

"I think the Jazz group is dreaming in technicolor, if they think they'll get the EMB's."

Exactly, they are dreaming , and the Company is rubbing their little cabbage collectors together wondering just how low you'll go to keep them. Too bad you don't really get it !

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Apparently AC cancelled a number? of EMB ac as a result of LGA's placing a 100 seat or greater size restriction on flights operating from that facility.

What will the effect of all this be on the Jazz / AC relationship?

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Apparently AC cancelled a number? of EMB ac as a result of LGA's placing a 100 seat or greater size restriction on flights operating from that facility.

What will the effect of all this be on the Jazz / AC relationship?

Where did you hear that? This is from AC's first quarter financials.

By early 2008, Air Canada is scheduled to operate a total of 45 Embraer 190

aircraft.

That is the total order.

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I heard from someone who mentioned it's not the number of actual seats but the certified amount i.e. E-190 carries 93 certified to 110. So basically the 190 is in the CRJ 100/200/705 is out.

And by the first quarter of 2008 the last of the 190's will be here totalling 45 with 15 E-175 making a grand total of 60.

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"So basically the 190 is in the CRJ 100/200/705 is out."

....& the EMB 175. The 190 will only be "in" as you say if the new rule does in fact exempt operators with ac having a certified capacity in excess of 100 seats vs the actual number?

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This is how the 705 actually came into existance. The 705 is a 65 seat version of the 900. It was certified as a 65 seater to satisfy the scope clause placed on Jazz. If it were not for the clause the 705 would have been a 900 with 90 seats.

B

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This is how the 705 actually came into existance.  The 705 is a 65 seat version of the 900.  It was certified as a 65 seater to satisfy the scope clause placed on Jazz.  If it were not for the clause the 705 would have been a 900 with 90 seats.

B

I believe you meant 75 seats on the 705. (10J and 65Y)

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I say cut Jazz loose, give them exactly what they want. Let them compete in the market place with whatever... AC can cancel the feed agreement and start up a really low cost feeder. Who needs a DH8 Capt making 100k+ anyway. Oh, and they could even pay for their own fuel, that would do wonders for the mainlines bottom line... blink.gif

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Guest floatrrr

I say cut Jazz loose, give them exactly what they want. Let them compete in the market place with whatever... AC can cancel the feed agreement and start up a really low cost feeder. Who needs a DH8 Capt making 100k+ anyway. Oh, and they could even pay for their own fuel, that would do wonders for the mainlines bottom line...  blink.gif

Cut Jazz loose so they can fly 777's and 87's for 100K a year, give the 8s to mainline, the new hires will fly them for 45K a year? Sounds good to me! Ace should cut mainline loose , let someone else deal with the pension issues, and let a more motivated workforce fly the 319 and up. 100K a year to fly one of those big new shiny airplanes sounds real good to me! Status Pay! But thats probably not exactly what you had in mind is it? Can't wait! How low will we go? cool26.gif Even if it doesn't happen, it will certainly help the company negotiators drive mainline wages down. I like that!

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Guest rattler

I say cut Jazz loose, give them exactly what they want. Let them compete in the market place with whatever... AC can cancel the feed agreement and start up a really low cost feeder. Who needs a DH8 Capt making 100k+ anyway. Oh, and they could even pay for their own fuel, that would do wonders for the mainlines bottom line...  blink.gif

And who would replace Jazz and their 50,000 odd flights a month???? Do you really think ACPA would condone AC starting a

really low cost feeder
cool.gif
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Cut Jazz loose so they can fly 777's and 87's for 100K a year, give the 8s to mainline, the new hires will fly them for 45K a year? Sounds good to me!  Ace should cut mainline loose , let someone else deal with the pension issues, and let a more motivated workforce fly the 319 and up. 100K a year to fly one of those big new shiny airplanes sounds real good to me! Status Pay! But thats probably not exactly what you had in mind is it? Can't wait! How low will we go? cool26.gif Even if it doesn't happen, it will certainly help the company negotiators drive mainline wages down. I like that!

Under who's Op certificate would you fly? All those route require bilateral negotiations & approvals - good luck when the flag carrier already serves them. Where will you get your slots and the money to buy them? Just who will provide the capital in such a competitive market? And who will provide the aircraft and the training?

Lastly without mainline feed just how long would you last?

And why would the shareholders of AC Mainline allow such a thing???

This is the problem with Pilots, no business sense, personal or otherwise... the concept of disposing of one unit is at best a joke.

Thanks for taking the bait, you have illustrated why such an idea is preposterous for both sides, the regionals will never get the mainline equip and vice versa. So we have a choice don't we... We can co-operate and improve all of our working conditions, or we can facilitate the decline of our so called profession.

Edited by Leading Edge
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"Under who's Op certificate would you fly? All those route require bilateral negotiations & approvals - good luck when the flag carrier already serves them. Where will you get your slots and the money to buy them? Just who will provide the capital in such a competitive market? And who will provide the aircraft and the training?"

The same type of people that have money to burn through their support of ANY & ALL airlines?

"Lastly without mainline feed just how long would you last?"

As long as mainline without feed?

"And why would the shareholders of AC Mainline allow such a thing???"

The sale would equate to money in pocket?

"This is the problem with Pilots, no business sense, personal or otherwise"

Mostly correct IMO.

"... the concept of disposing of one unit is at best a joke."

why?

"Thanks for taking the bait, you have illustrated why such an idea is preposterous for both sides, the regionals will never get the mainline equip and vice versa."

Bait?

"So we have a choice don't we... We can co-operate and improve all of our working conditions, or we can facilitate the decline of our so called profession."

The "Vegas Bookies" will be taking bets at 20 - 1 against pilot cooperation.

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