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8. Eliminating the ability to purchase a C1 pass within 24 hours of departure does not address the issues outlined above. .

I only have 22 years in and I don’t commute so it may not be my place to comment, but I will anyway.

Okay, as I understand it the petition starter and supporters have been bumped by a junior employee using a C1 pass. Now said bumpee is bummed.

Well, cry me a river. I have no sympathy. That’s life traveling on a pass.

Not a C1 event but: My wife recently sat at an airport from 08:00 AM till 10:00 PM as all the empty seats (and there were some on every flight) on the Jazz flight were filled by some miss-connects and by a mainland pilot’s wife taking load after load of kids to a tournament at the destination city.

It was frustrating that this mainland pilot did not pre-book his wife & ‘companions’. If they did my wife could have tried for first flight or go the next day. But hey, that’s life traveling on a pass.

As for your petition: It would seem that some senior-types are trying to take away the one back up that many junior commuters rely on. It smacks of greed and arrogance.

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As for your petition: It would seem that some senior-types are trying to take away the one back up that many junior commuters rely on. It smacks of greed and arrogance.

I've done my fair share of commuting to work. Granted, I wasn't in the type of job that a flight could potentially not go if I didn't make it there. Still, you were expected to be at work on time.

I don't think that anyone taking a job in the airline industry is so ill-informed that they can realistically think that they might have to move a few times throughout their career. If you choose to commute that is your choice. Why should the rest of us that are want to just travel on a C2 have to buy a C1 because the employee that has been there 20 years less than us decided to buy one.

Seniority is seniority. Boarding of the aircraft should be done on that and that alone. There should be no buying your way ahead of others. I still think that there should be a system that allows us to buy our way up into J (yes this is the CDN way) but we only pay that if we actually get it. Yes, this is a tough system on the junior employees, we were all there once and we paid our dues accordingly.

I for one will be signing. I highly doubt that this is going to have any effect on the company. I firmly believe that employee relations are so far down their priority list when a few small changes to some of the benefits would go a long way to picking up morale.

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Watch out folks.

As an accountant my first thought would be to grant the petitioners wish but modify the situation slightly.

Step 1, abolish the C2 pass and make everyone up purchase to a C1 pass. This solution is better for the bottom line and grants employees their petitioned wish.

Step2, then about six months later abolish the privilege of sitting in J on a C1 pass.

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it!!!

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Just an aside to the prudently paranoid -  those signing up are exposing their name and emp # to all and any who would access that site for whatever reason.

Lakelad, after your post I had a look at the list. I had only read the petition and didn't know you needed to put the employee number with a name. What is really interesting is that I think there may be a name or two that were posted by 'friends'. This could be interesting.

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John, am probably overreacting but I'm just a little concerned that there's a concentration of approx 500 AC names and id nbrs that can be screen-scraped in a matter of seconds. Just cracking the passwords for 1% could create damage or mischief for half a dozen people.

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Guest rattler

Just for fun, go to the site, try and put in a phoney name, email address and emp. number. It will take all 3. Survey is therefore quite invalid. cool.gif

It will even allow you to vote more than once or so it appears by some of the double entries.

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Guest rattler

Names 426 & 427 sure make a mockery of the whole thing.

There is no way the company will even consider this petition, it is a total waste of time.

If, like most airlines, Air Canada considers the pass policy to be theirs and not part of any bargaining process.... they will ignore this survey unless such a change will be considered cost and moral effective. It would be very interesting to see any information on the demographics of those wishing the change.

Length of service, base, mainland or regional and family status - single, married, married with children.

I suspect those wishing most for any change would fall into the higher seniority range and are married with children who normally travel as a group.

The best pass policy that I was familiar with was one that operated strictly on seniority with the ability to list in the higher class but when push came to shove, those with more seniority were to be boarded ahead of more junior employees no matter the class of seating listed.

So if space was available for all, staff who listed for and were to be charged for the higher class would be so seated and the rest would fill the back but if not enough seats were available for all, then seniority would rule.

Those who complain most about "seniority" are normally those who don't have any and can not understand why the senior employee (or retiree) deserves better treatment than the junior. Go figure. cool.gif

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How about a petition to bring AC in line with the rest of the world on the treatment of retiree's. There is no way they should be travelling on the same priority as active employees, employees who actually still work for the company. That is a petition I'm sure would garner widespread support.

Edited by Homerun
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The pass system as it is now is much better than in the past. There has ALWAYS been the ability to PURCHASE an "upgrade".

The old system had the "C" passes and the ID passes. An employee could PURCHASE and ID 50 and go POS. While leaving a 30 year employee in the lounge. The associated cost being the difference. If I am willing to PAY MORE to ensure myself a seat then why should that be taken away. If you want to go the cheapest possible route then you have to take your chances.

My wife and I are going on a second honeymoon and will use our C1's exclusively for the trip. Those passes are there as a BENEFIT that you wish to take away. If you are willing to give up benefits so easily then why not give up your pension next or you medical or ...

Like it was said before "be careful what you wish for...You just might get it"

B

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Guest rattler

How about a petition to bring AC in line with the rest of the world on the treatment of retiree's.  There is no way they should be travelling on the same priority as active employees, employees who actually still work for the company.  That is a petition I'm sure would garner widespread support.

Lots of support from Juniors of course. cool.gif

I would love to see an airline by airline breakdown showing those who allow retirees to use passes based on their seniority at retirement vs those who don't. I suspect those who don't are in the minority.

Retirees earned and deserve their seniority and it is frozen when they retire (they do not continue to accrue seniority) So who knows, you may eventually catch up with one and get on ahead of him/her.

If your concern is the number of people who may get on before you then maybe it is time to go back to the good old days. Limited passes until you get 5 years in, then more at 10 etc. No more partner passes except for those in a registered relationship, get rid of friends & family etc, etc, etc, All those extras that those who are now retired fought for over the years and that you now enjoy. (perhaps this type of change would not be to your taste? tongue.gif )

I guess my point is once you start mucking around with the policy in an attempt to disenfranchise one group it could result in others being reined in.

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I've done my fair share of commuting to work. Granted, I wasn't in the type of job that a flight could potentially not go if I didn't make it there. Still, you were expected to be at work on time.

I don't think that anyone taking a job in the airline industry is so ill-informed that they can realistically think that they might have to move a few times throughout their career. If you choose to commute that is your choice. Why should the rest of us that are want to just travel on a C2 have to buy a C1 because the employee that has been there 20 years less than us decided to buy one.

Seniority is seniority. Boarding of the aircraft should be done on that and that alone. There should be no buying your way ahead of others. I still think that there should be a system that allows us to buy our way up into J (yes this is the CDN way) but we only pay that if we actually get it. Yes, this is a tough system on the junior employees, we were all there once and we paid our dues accordingly.

I for one will be signing. I highly doubt that this is going to have any effect on the company. I firmly believe that employee relations are so far down their priority list when a few small changes to some of the benefits would go a long way to picking up morale.

Wow Stickle, that's quite a chip-on-the-shoulder you're carrying there.

Let me start with the, "I've paid my dues, now you pay yours," mindset. I'm not really sure what you mean by paying dues, do you mean that you put in your years and now you want the benefit that your seniority affords you? If that's it, how about the fact that I'm working at "B" scale wages so that you get to keep your pension. What's that worth? Does that count as paying dues? It should because it will go on longer and cost more than what you "paid." Maybe pass travel should just be first-to-register, first-to-get-a-seat since it would seem that our contributions are equal. OK, so I don't really mean that. I understand seniority and agree that pass travel priority should be based on it however, the C1 system in place seems like a fair compromise in that it affords the junior employee the option of being placed higher on the list at higher cost when its really important while still giving you the means to trump him when its really important to you. I just can't help myself when I hear someone starting in on the, "some uppidy junior employee trying to take what's rightfully mine" routine. Besides, I really think we're talking about a rare circumstance; how many times have you not been able to travel due to somebody junior buying a C1?

In reality though the C1 issue is not about our relative seniority. The problem is that the company looks at a commuter in a different way than they do someone who drives to work. You say that it's a choice to commute, well you're right, it's a choice just as some people choose to live in Barrie and drive down the 400. If I pick my commuting flight carefully based on the load and weather and leave myself several flights as backup as still get caught because of a mechanical issue (for example) I can virtually guarantee a stern lecture from my boss and a letter on my personal file, if the guy who's driving is late because of snow squalls, or because an accident has backed up traffic crew sched just says to, "do your best" when he calls in to say he'll be late. No letter on his file, no visit to the boss. Why the difference? When we're late operating a flight we expect our passengers to accept it and reschedule their lives. We sell the service as reliable and tell them to buy with confidence and to plan their lives around our schedule but don't accept the very same flights as an acceptable way for our own employees to get to work. Commuters live with a target on their backs and here's how I know; if I were to experience the very same highway delay going to my home airport as my Barrie co-worker did going to YYZ and if because of that delay I missed my intended flight and am therefore late for work, I would be summoned to account for this even if the flight had open seats. You see? There is no acceptable excuse for a commuter.

Jazz has a policy that acknowledges the legitimacy of commuting. You won't get paid for any flight you miss and there is no reprimand as long as you can show, by means of a boarding pass, that you actually had a seat on a flight that would have got you to work on time. I'd bet that last minute C1 purchases are nonexistent because of this policy. This policy, BTW, is similar to the policy that is in place at many US airlines.

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Guest rattler

Jazz has a policy that acknowledges the legitimacy of commuting. You won't get paid for any flight you miss and there is no reprimand as long as you can show, by means of a boarding pass, that you actually had a seat on a flight that would have got you to work on time. I'd bet that last minute C1 purchases are nonexistent because of this policy. This policy, BTW, is similar to the policy that is in place at many US airlines.

ACE eliminated the last min. C1 passes by changing their computer to reject such listings within the 24hours window. I understand that was done last month.

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Boestar and Rattler

In 73' the old c passes were in effect and it must have been a nightmare for the Cssa's at large airports.

If there were 20 people standing by for a flight and 10 had the same years of service then it came down to the time you checked in at the airport for boarding priority. The boarding passes were marked with the time as you checked in.

Also before registering for a flight became mandatory , us juniors avoided the Caribbean and Fla. during the months of Nov and Apr. The retirees who snowbirded down there never bothered to register and just showed up at the airport. I used to get so angry because a flight would look really good and then 40 senior cons would show up.

Seeker

During the 80's and early 90's I was a ViceChair for my base. I remember the pre-negotiation meetings very well. Our Bargaining Chairman would listen to us all and then very quietly say " This is a Union for all employees regardless of their years of service. If you senior employees opt to give away this article then it will affect all the junior and new hire employees of the future. You have the ability to ensure reasonable wages and working conditions for the future. Do you want a two tier wage system?"

Of course with the merger and CCAA the two tier became a reality for most unions. Do I like it -no but we did bargain against it for as long as we could. And we bargained hard for our health benefits, unlimited pass privilages, partner passes and our pensions.

So to the AC employees out there remember passes are a privilage and can be terminated at any time.

And to be honest most of us who have retired in the past 6 years travel only when we need to ie funerals. Chances are that its the active employees with more senority taking those seats away not retirees. Personally I'd rather stick pins in my eyeballs than enter an airport.

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And to be honest most of us who have retired in the past 6 years travel only when we need to ie funerals. Chances are that its the active employees with more senority taking those seats away not retirees. Personally I'd rather stick pins in my eyeballs than enter an airport.

Come on, there must be something happy to go to. People not getting married any more?

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Guest Kilo Mike

Well said newgirl, boestar and others.

It's unfortunate that the C2 priviledge given the Jazz folks, or the artificially inflated DOH for travel some ex-CRA folks enjoy has given rise to 'some' feeling a sense of entitlement:

Seniority is seniority. Boarding of the aircraft should be done on that and that alone. There should be no buying your way ahead of others. - Stickle

I mean common ... What's this buying seniority garbage ? I can go tommorow and buy a tango fare and bump the #1 senior employee from their attempt at 'el cheapo' travel. The fact that there are more bogus artifically inflated dates for travel floating around this company seems to be lost on some folks so how does one truely judge who's the more senior these days? Now having said that, I'm glad the company clamped down on the folks using C1's at the last minute so as to let folks see the playing field properly and make the decissions that they need to.

The bottom line is seniority ranking only matters when you are traveling on the same pass level. You want to do the el cheapo ... then you take your chances. If someone doesn't want to risk being bumped and they want to cough up more dough for that reduction in stress, then power to them... Be it a C1 , family affair , or god forbid as a regular fared passenger.

John S said it quite well:

Okay, as I understand it the petition starter and supporters have been bumped by a junior employee using a C1 pass. Now said bumpee is bummed. Well, cry me a river. I have no sympathy. That’s life traveling on a pass.

It smacks of greed and arrogance.

Bullseye !!!

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Guest rattler
Boestar and Rattler

In 73' the old c passes were in effect and it must have been a nightmare for the Cssa's at large airports.

If there were 20 people standing by for a flight and 10 had the same years of service then it came down to the time you checked in at the airport for boarding priority. The boarding passes were marked with the time as you checked in.

NewGirl:At CP -- BC (before computers it was real easy) the standby tickets were stacked in reverse order of checkin and seniority. Most senior to the top in order of time checked in. All you did then was deal out seats until the plane was full. Of course on the big birds you had to pull stickers off the seat chart and affix them to the boarding pass. On the small ones you just asked the head FA for a head count and then filled the plane (seat selection was the first empty one you came to).

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