Global Solution fallout

[.70 mach]

I received this via e-mail from a ACPA member, thanks to him our union has been very very silent on this topic. I was going to go into a long rant about the lawsuit being separate from Jazz but why bother, the damage that has been done is irreversible. They wont drop it and you guys wont meet unless they do.

Hope to be changing unions very soon ; )

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your MEC Infoline update for August 10, 2005. It has come to the attention of the Association, that there are a number of rumours circulating concerning the recent informal discussions held between ACPA and ALPA Jazz.

In order to set the record straight, the following is a chronology of events to date:

* On May 25th, 2005, a joint ACPA and ALPA MEC Bulletin was issued. This bulletin simply advised all pilots that a joint luncheon was planned for Monday June 13, 2005, to discuss, in an informal setting with no set agenda contemplated, the many labor problems that exist at Air Canada, which are common to both pilot groups. Examples of these areas of mutual concerns were such items as flight safety, jump seat access, and the general relations with the Air Canada management in Flight Operations and higher;

* This luncheon meeting was held as planned and was cordial in nature. While no further meetings were scheduled, and in fact have not been scheduled to date, we did promise to inform the pilot membership of any such developments . this was reported in the Infoline Bulletin of ACPA MEC Chair, Capt. John Scott, on June 16, 2005. With respect to any future discussions pertaining to any potential global solution, the MEC directed the following:

* A formal letter was to be sent to the AC Jazz MEC, on July 14, 2005, under my signature, setting out certain pre-conditions that we, the ACPA MEC, viewed as necessary to be met before any future "global solution" discussions could continue. These pre-conditions were included in a motion adopted by the MEC are as follows:

(1) In the integration of any pilot seniority list, "Jazz pilots shall join the Air Canada mainline seniority list at the bottom of the list."

(2) "Any change to the ownership of ACPA's bargaining rights must be the result of a representation vote."

(3) "The Air Ontario lawsuit must be withdrawn."

The ALPA AC Jazz MEC has only very recently (August 5, 2005) responded to our letter and only in a general and non-committal manner. I'd like to reiterate that there has been no further meetings since the June 13th luncheon. The next ACPA MEC Meeting is scheduled for September 12-14, 2005 in Winnipeg, and this issue will be further discussed at that time.

Thank You

John Scott

MEC Chair

[Guest rance]

That is crazy.What the heck does a personal lawsuit by some sr. air ontario cpts have to do with the rest of Jazz?

It has zero to do with ALPA.Even if ALPA wanted to there is no way to make people stop a PERSONAL lawsuit.

If an ACPA member ran over me in the staff parking lot and I decided to sue him personally, what would ALPA have to do with my lawsuit.....nothing!

The other 93% of Jazz are not part of this lawsuit or support it, I don't see why ACPA can't see this.This is unfortunate.

[AME]

I don't see why ACPA can't see this.This is unfortunate.

Because the industry is in an "Up" cycle, just wait until the next down turn and it'll be the other way around or at least that's the way it's gone in the past.

[Cargo Agent]

The saga continues, and the company just smiles, knowing that it gives them more time to pit one group against the other.

When does the last person named in the lawsuit retire? I figure that is about the time that this farce will end.

[Guest rance]

"Because the industry is in an "Up" cycle."

Good point, but what have the 2 groups given up in wages and concessions fighting thru the years....enough to make R.M very happy.

If ACPA wanted to get back at the members involved in the lawsuit all they have to do is drop the condition regarding the lawsuit.The members of the lawsuit do not like seeing jr. members go to A.C (misery loves company) and nothing would upset them more than finally being placed on the b.o.t.l, which the majority of Jazz pilots would accept.Time is ticking and b.o.t.l at the end of a hiring cycle might not be worth it.

[MCDU]

It's not a "personal" lawsuit and it's not a farce. It's pretty much everyone who was on the Air Ontario list in 1995 suing everyone who was an Air Canada pilot at that date for an outrageous sum of money.

As a regular-joe line pilot, I am a defendant in that lawsuit. Although it has a snowball's chance of surviving, one tends to take note when one's personal share of a damage claim is close to $200K. It seems to me that the same people driving that process are the same people controlling the ALPA agenda so why would we give them anything?

[Guest rance]

"It's not a "personal" lawsuit ".

Yes, it is.ALPA is not suing ACPA, person A is suing person B period.It has nothing to do with the other 1300 members of Jazz or ALPA.

"It seems to me that the same people driving that process are the same people controlling the ALPA agenda so why would we give them anything"

This is correct and I totally understand why you feel upset, but don't lump me and all other Jazz pilots in with a few that are suing you.The sr. members that are controlling the agenda, don't give a s--t about a jr. members going to the mainline and are looking for any excuse to avoid b.o.t.l.

Do you really think that a sr.Jazz cpt. would want to go right seat an a Emb?They would just stay where they are and us jr.guys would benefit and this war would be finished.Unfortunately ACPA gave them a way out by including the lawsuit condition....so now our MEC can say sorry nothing ALPA can do about dropping a lawsuit.

If that condition was not included and our MEC said no to b.o.t.l without a vote there would be hell to pay...and they know it.

[exGXer]

Ahh, I love the smell of discontent in the morning.

[Sky High]

I wonder if the lawsuit condition was added in the hopes that the pilots who are not involved, knowing how it will affect them, would put pressure on the ones who are involved to drop it. That seems to be the only reason for the condition that I can think of. Just a guess of course. Is this a possibility??

[Mitch Cronin]

Sky High,

I'd guess it may be a bit more simple and obvious than that... I think it's likely that a majority of ACPA folks truly consider that an absolute condition of any closer relationship between the two groups. They're not the ones looking for a partnership (as AME points out, not in this "Up cycle" climate at least), but when the question comes "what would it take...?", that's the answer given, regardless of probability. ... I don't know the players, but I'd think the notion that the lawsuit has nothing to do with Jazz is going to be extra hard to swallow if even a single member of the Jazz representatives you're discussing it with is among the list of plaintiffs... and it sounds as though there may be a few of them? ..But even if not, no doubt a few among the ACPA reps are named in the suit. ...and it was just this sort of mutual list notion that wound up with the AO folks filing the suit in the first place, so it's not as though it's a distant thought.

[Dropzone]

The  other 93% of Jazz are not part of this  lawsuit or support it, I don't see why ACPA can't see this.This is unfortunate.

I have always been stunned that the 93% MAJORITY of JAZZ pilots continue to allow the 7% to "block the road" for everyone with this insane lawsuit. Aren't you all ALPA members?

[Guest Kilo Mike]

One would think that the vast majority of Jazz members would have just cause to sue these rogue ex-AO types. Haven't the actions of these individules 'harmed' the ALPA Jazz pilot's?

It's obvious the plaintiffs in this case have shown a propensity for cranial vapour lock, so why even bother trying to reason with them. Talk to them in the language that they understand.

[Lakelad]

I have always been stunned that the 93% majority of JAZZ pilots continue to allow the 7% to "block the road"......

'allow'? - exactly what leverage is available to the 93% to dissuade the 7% from their present course?

[Guest rance]

Skyblazer,

" wonder if the lawsuit condition was added in the hopes that the pilots who are not involved, knowing how it will affect them, would put pressure on the ones who are involved to drop it."

Good point and I wondered the same thing, but the reality of the situation is that a sr. ex-A.O cpt. does not care what a jr. member thinks.They know they will never go to the mainline, so why would they care if I can't.

it would be a tough sell to say, can you drop your lawsuit so I can go to mainline.

The majority of Jazz pilots (93%) have zero leverage because it is a personal lawsuit which ALPA has zero control over.

The only one's that are being penalized are jr.Jazz members that want to go to mainline.Only chance out is to hope mainline calls for an interview, which is a slow process.

[Guest ACSideStick]

Rance,

Last spring, the individual members of Jazz re-elected Nick DeSinkmycarrereo. This was just after he had single handedly destroyed the Global Solutions in Feb. His list of unrealistic demands caused ACPA to simply say "See you in another 5 years", as has been the case since 1996. Since 1996, there have been 3 major attempts to place Jazz pilots on the ACPA seniority list. All of them have failed because senior ALPA individuals have made unrealistic take it or leave it demands.

The question you should ask yourself Rance is why does ALPA not tell us what happened at the Global Solutions talks (in 1996, 2001, 2004).

I have been telling people for almost two years, that when the hiring began, Jazz was going to get screwed if they didn't work this out. I have tried to be part of the solution, but nothing short of full revolt is going to fix things.

AC is currently taking 1 Jazz per class of 20. I have to admit that I am surprised the number is that high. Remember, 20 out of 20 would have been from Jazz if it wasn't for the ALPA MEC. By the way, I was reading on the new hire board and noticed that 4 or 5 of the first class of 10 came from CMA.

[Guest rance]

"but nothing short of full revolt is going to fix things"

Maybe that's what should happen.I'm tired of certain individuals deciding my career path and I'm tired of being told "we can't answer that question because we told ACPA the talks are to be confidential". I call B.S.

If ACPA does have the lawsuit as a condition, then ALPA's hands are tied and gives them a convenient way out.ACPA could really put the heat on if they took that condition out and then watched the Jazz mec try to explain what stands in the way now.

I don't understand what sr. members are holding out for.None want to go to mainline anyways, so how would B.O.T.L affect them...it doesn't.

I for one have had enough and my only way out is to hope AC calls for an interview.

[Dropzone]

Last spring, the individual members of Jazz re-elected Nick DeSinkmycarrereo.

That's the best laugh I've had this week...!

[vanishing point]

You know, it gets a little tiresome to have the Sr Jazz pilots accused of 'not giving a sh** about the junior pilots and their desires to further their career. Not all Sr Jazz pilots are ex AO, nor are they involved in any way in any lawsuits.

We were only here, doing our thing and getting by through mergers, strikes, layoff etc possibly all before you were even working in this field. Im still waiting to see something constructive being suggested as to what senior Jazz pilots can DO to assist you in your career aspirations. To just keep saying we 'dont give a ..." is hardly that.

[Guest rance]

"You know, it gets a little tiresome to have the Sr Jazz pilots accused of 'not giving a sh** about the junior pilots "

Good point, my apologies.I was referring to those involved with the lawsuit.

[RussD]

AC is currently taking 1 Jazz per class of 20.  I have to admit that I am surprised the number is that high. 

This statement is as accurate as the rest of your post. It's wrong just as the rest of your post is wrong.

[Kid]

(3) "The Air Ontario lawsuit must be withdrawn."

Why would the ACPA MEC include this condition for an agreement when it knows full well that ALPA has no say in the A.O. suit?.

Call me a cynic but could it be that building in an impossible condition was a way of saying "no thanks" to the G.S. that may even cause further dissention among the the Jazz pilots?

Naa, probably not.

[Guest woxof]

"The only one's that are being penalized are jr.Jazz members that want to go to mainline. Only chance out is to hope mainline calls for an interview, which is a slow process."

How terrible. Like it is a fast process for anyone else. They all are wishing they had a guaranteed quota of one out of twenty or one per groundschool or whatever it is. Here's to hoping no one gets a free ride no matter how much they think they deserve it.

[Guest rance]

woxof,

For just a passenger you sure seem to keep a close eye on the Air Canada hiring process....hmmm

Quote from July 27th....

"As someone who has never applied to Air Canada but flies as a passenger, I say to the Jazz pilots....step in line and compete against all the other qualified candidates."

[Parakeet]

If you graph the progress of these talks over time it works out to nothing but foreplay. You will all be old or dead before anything works out. Just look at those old buzzards at AO and there is your future. You need serious change at ALPA.

[Seeker]

AC is currently taking 1 Jazz per class of 20. I have to admit that I am surprised the number is that high. Remember, 20 out of 20 would have been from Jazz if it wasn't for the ALPA MEC. By the way, I was reading on the new hire board and noticed that 4 or 5 of the first class of 10 came from CMA.

The first class had 1 out of 10 and the second had 6 out of 12 from Jazz. The 3rd class starts on Monday with 15 - no word on how many from Jazz. The first class had 3 from CMA not 4 or 5. You need a new source for your information.