Ac Hiring and Jazz pilots

[Guest rance]

"You are right on the mark with this one! "

Defcon,

If that is your thinking then don't be mad at Picher, think of it as a cost saving method for the company.

[Guest woxof]

CONCERNING 2,000 HOUR PILOTS:

"How do you figure. If I'm the cpt. on a stormy night I would want someone that has some flying experience other than circuits in a 152 or 500 hours on a king air."

I'm sure there are some in the military with only 2,000 hours. Besides, hours are not eveything. Haven't we all flown with high time guys who were questionable?

"if you replace the highest paid with the lowest paid there will be a decrease in the payroll."

If I remember correctly, the last time AC hired from its regionals, a revolving door of junior guys replacing junior guys existed. Newhires arrive for three months before moving on to AC. Much of the senior staff, at two regionals anyway stayed behind, whatever the reason. I suggest that not only did the connectors not save money during that hiring binge but instead spent huge amounts of money in training expenses.

"You should be aware that the OAC list is ripe with persons hired based on nepotism and equity hiring programs etc. You will not often find a "best candidate" for the job in those senario's."

Perhaps true, but narrowing the priority list to only one company to get first crack at the jobs is hardly a solution. I bet that there were a lot of high quality pilots hired in the last boom by AC from outside the AC family and overall, nepotism and equity hiring was a small percentage. Although I'm sure most newhires from outside the AC family had contacts of some sort.

"When you buy a ticket on Air Canada, who exactly do you think is flying the plane? In many cases, it is NOT an Air Canada pilot. Welcome to the real world."

That doesn't change the fact that When it is an AC pilot, I want what AC felt was the best person for the job, not the best of a limited choice or a seiority list or whatever a few posters here seem to feel is their right.

[Guest floatrrr]

Absolutely not.  The ALPA structure is far more condusive to represent the junior/senior demography,  We elect status reps.  50% of the vote at the MEC level has to come from F/O's.  That is not the the ACPA  reality.

Careful what you wish for.    You may get it

You must be mixing your meds incorrectly or something!Tell me, what have you voted on since the Jazz MEC was elected? I'll give you the answer (since your head seems to be somewhere where there is no light or fresh air) SQUAT! . You want to know why? Because ALPO is nothing but a dictatorship with a self serving agenda, and I'm not just talking on an MEC level. If ALPA were truly a democratic union ,and wanted to serve it's constituents evenly, they would remove the auto ratification process from the helm of these reckless MEC's ,and let the members decide on important issues. At least ACPA gets to vote on issues. So blow sunshine somewhere the listeners will actually believe you, like some of the newhires you will be flying with. Tell them all about Picher, and the big bad red machine, and how the lawsuit has nothing to do with union relations, and I will thell them the truth! .!..

[RussD]

You must be mixing your meds incorrectly or something!Tell me, what have you voted on since the Jazz MEC was elected? I'll give you the answer (since your head seems to be somewhere where there is no light or fresh air) SQUAT! . You want to know why? Because ALPO is nothing but a dictatorship with a self serving agenda, and I'm not just talking on an MEC level. If ALPA were truly a democratic union ,and wanted to serve it's constituents evenly, they would remove the auto ratification process from the helm of these reckless MEC's ,and let the members decide on important issues. At least ACPA gets to vote on issues. So blow sunshine somewhere the listeners will actually believe you, like some of the newhires you will be flying with. Tell them all about Picher, and the big bad red machine, and how the lawsuit has nothing to do with union relations, and I will thell them the truth! .!..

I checked,,,, All my meds are in perfect harmony

I think you are confusing the issue. Membership ratification of issues is an option within ALPA. At certain times it is, I believe, in the best interest of the electorate to allow the elected representatives to do their work. That by definition is what representative democracy is. Rule by referendum has been proven to be at best chaotic (California and ACPA spring to mind ,,,contradictory propositions and/or hijacking votes over non related issues). Having said that, regardless of the superior demographic representational structure of ALPA vs ACPA I believe there is a place for constituent votes on permanent issues.

I think you need to put the actions of your fellow democratically elected Captains and First Officers in some perspective. For example:

: a 4 way merger; 9-11; CCAA; and perhaps most importantly a predatory employee group, masquerading as a trade union (read ACPA) that perceived the entire CCAA event as an opportunity to destroy Jazz regardless of the resultant human tragedies. You say your fellow pilots are reckless (might tough talk little lady) I say you just don’t know what you’re talking about.

Vsplat, you and your ilk can cry all sorts of crocodile tears over the sad state of the warring pilot groups within the ACE family of Co’s. He and you conveniently forget to mention it the ACPA gang that created this labour fiasco (in fact ACPA was created specifically to create the division and inevitable competition between the pilot groups), spent millions to sustain it and at every opportunity sabotage a resolution. Splat may be a nice guy, but he doesn’t warrant a response. He does have some pretty amusing variations of the CCAA debacle though. Too bad they’re all fantasy.

I was a ‘junior guy‘ when this tragedy erupted. If I’m a ‘senior guy’ now it’s just because I haven’t died yet. I don’t talk about the Picher travesty to anyone. I don’t not let an ‘astronaught “in the flight deck, just because. I say G’day to every fellow pilot I meet in the hall. I support my union regardless of it’s faults because it isn’t a one trick pony.

You say you know the truth. I think you know nothing and are prepared to market that to advance a go nowhere agenda. I’ve seen it before, you are old news.

Have a great day tho

Russ

[ChicoChico]

So if I understand you right Mr. RussD you pretty much despise ACPA and adore ALPA and you despise Air Canada and adore Jazz. You blame ACPA for all that is wrong in the family but wonder of wonders you ain't an ACPA member (nor would you want to be I assume).

If you speak for the average Jazz pilot then there truly is no hope for peace in the family. I hope that you don't speak for the average Jazz pilot.

Somewhere out there lies a solution and it won't happen before the mutually destructive insults stop flying between the parties.

I too, look my fellow pilot (regardless of race, creed or colour) in the eye and smile, nod or say hello. Funny how many of them look the other way or avoid eye contact - tells me something tho...

Cheers Chico

PS I vehemently disagree with this statement:

(in fact ACPA was created specifically to create the division and inevitable competition between the pilot groups),

ACPA was created for more than one reason but never for the specific reason you quote. I'm sure you feel that ACPA's creation caused the RESULTS we have to day but that too is a matter of opinion.

[Vsplat]

RussD, what a regrettable post.

You assume a great deal regarding my background. That you would then base insults on assumptions says more about you than the subject.

You may wish to step back a bit a read your stuff before it comes here.

Vs

[Guest rance]

"If you speak for the average Jazz pilot then there truly is no hope for peace in the family"

He doesn't speak for the majority of the Jazz pilots and that is a problem with this system.Guys like RussD could be in our MEC and they are the ones having discussions with ACPA on issues such as G.S....so if his ACPA counterpart is also living in the past then it is no wonder nothing gets done.I bet if you took the average AC pilot and average Jazz pilot, they would both want to work out a solution, unfortunately there are people with very long memories involved.

Russ you talk about how open ALPA is and how F/O's get equal weight, what aload of crap.There have been many instinces where people on the ALPA forum ask very straight questions such as what are the stumbling blocks with G/S, how many members involved in the negotiations are part of the lawsuit etc. and all hell breaks loose.Those people are shot down and told how insulting their questions are and if you want to go to mainline get the hell out of here.It's a joke and the people paying the price for your little war and bitterness of the past are the jr. members wanting to go to mainline.

Hopefully ACPA will realise by not hiring from Jazz they aren't hurting the people that are suing them, in fact some enjoy the fact that there is little hiring from Jazz so they can have a new generation of recruits for their battle....see how bad AC is etc.

I choose not to do battle with ACPA or AC.I've seen what it has done to others and life is too short to be bitter and the majority of peers in my position feel the same way.

[Kid]

I too, look my fellow pilot (regardless of race, creed or colour) in the eye and smile, nod or say hello. Funny how many of them look the other way or avoid eye contact - tells me something tho...

Cheers Chico

Glad to hear it Chico, I too do the same from the "other side of the fence", with the same result, and it tells me there are the same types on both sides of the issue.

Cheers Kid

[Guest floatrrr]

I checked,,,, All my meds are in perfect harmony

I think you are confusing the issue.  Membership ratification of issues is an option within ALPA. At certain times it is, I believe, in the best interest of the electorate to allow the elected representatives to do their work.  That by definition is what representative democracy is.  Rule by referendum has been proven to be at best chaotic  (California and ACPA  spring to mind ,,,contradictory propositions and/or hijacking votes over non related issues).  Having said that, regardless  of the superior demographic representational structure of ALPA vs ACPA I believe there is a place for constituent votes on permanent issues.

I think you need to put the actions of your fellow democratically elected Captains and First Officers in some perspective. For example:

: a 4 way merger; 9-11; CCAA; and perhaps most importantly a predatory employee group, masquerading as a trade union (read ACPA) that perceived the entire CCAA event as an opportunity to destroy Jazz regardless of the resultant human tragedies.    You say your fellow pilots are reckless (might tough talk little lady)  I say you just don’t know what you’re talking about.

Vsplat, you and your ilk can cry all sorts of crocodile tears over the sad state of the warring pilot groups within the ACE family of Co’s.  He and you conveniently forget to mention it the ACPA gang that created this labour fiasco (in fact ACPA was created specifically to create the division and inevitable  competition between the pilot groups), spent millions to sustain it and at every opportunity sabotage a resolution.  Splat may be a nice guy, but he doesn’t warrant a response. He does have some pretty amusing variations of the CCAA debacle though.  Too bad they’re all fantasy.

I was a ‘junior guy‘ when this tragedy erupted.  If I’m a ‘senior guy’ now it’s just because I haven’t died yet.  I don’t talk about the Picher travesty to anyone.  I don’t not let an ‘astronaught “in the flight deck, just because.  I say G’day to every fellow pilot I meet in the hall.  I support my union regardless of it’s faults because it isn’t a one trick pony. 

You say you know the truth.  I think you know nothing and are prepared to market that to advance a go nowhere agenda.  I’ve seen it before, you are old news.

Have a great day tho

Russ

Membership ratification within ALPA seems to happen very little at Jazz. So as far as being an option, it might as well not be. There never is enough time to vote, or the issue is too complicated to allow a membership ratification. That tells me that these elected officials don't have the confidence in the members that put them there to make a decision for their own future. I think you believe it is a good policy because maybe it has served you well in the past. Reckless may have been a bit soft for a description. How do you describe somebody that you trust in a position of power, making decisions that affect your career/life without any consultation? Just remember that the treatment you give these junior members is the the same treatment you can expect when they are in these positions of power.

Your rebuttal is typical and lacks perspective. Hopefully, very few Jazz pilots are hired at the mainline so it will make it more difficult for the likes of you to snow all the new hires at Jazz about your hate for ACPA and how great ALPA is. I rarely waste more than about 5 minutes talking to someone like you in the flight deck about these issues because you know it all, you've been there -done that, what could you possibly learn from me. So lets just change the subject and talk about where we're going to get our beer on the overnight,and I'll patiently wait for the next time I get to vote on something, maybe an election. Until then, cheers!

[Guest woxof]

"Have you read any of this thread?They are not hiring from one company, in fact they are taking 1 per g/s from Jazz...so don't see how that is a priority.

No one has said they should all come from Jazz, but they also shouldn't not hire because someone is from Jazz."

O.K. Rance. I reread this thread. You are correct. It is not about hiring from one company. You started off by talking about LOU 18(40% from Jazz). Please don't expect any of us to believe that you and manyof your coworkers would not want such unfair access in the future. Of course you do. I have already stated previously why I am opposed to a similar LOU.

"What does being from the military have to do with anything?.......I would rather fly with a guy on a stormy night that has more than 1800 hours (1000 of which is instructing in a 152)."

Some of the resumes on file at your company could be from a military pilot. Best to just say that I agree with you on the last part of your quote.

" if it has been proven that AC and Jazz are NOT common employer than why should training cost be an issue? If Jazz mgmt is saying don't hire from us because we are short that is not right.I would say the same thing if a Georgian pilot was in the same situation."

Training cost is an issue because it affects the bottom line and theoretically at least, your company exists to make money for its owners. They are not interested in training newhires for a three month stint. If Jazz has to cancel flights due to a pilot shortage because they agreed to let large numbers of pilots to go to Air Canada, that is not right, no matter what you may or may not say to some Georgian pilot.

[groundeffect]

It would appear, from the ignorance of some posters, that 'bad ol' acpa' was insrumental in scuttling the LOU hiring 40% jazz applicants.

In truth, it was AC that recinded the lou...mabey they 'should' have something to say in where their training costs are booked. Hmmm?

[Guest gldd]

Right you are. No common employer. Therefore, no promises who or how many are hired from Jazz. Unfair in so many ways.

[Guest woxof]

"Hiring at the mainline from Jazz is done by going down the Jazz senority list, so the days of the 3 month pilot are gone."

Once again proof that this particular aspect of hiring is unfair. Your seniority at a company should have little do with AC hiring you, although some companies like to see that you are not a job hopper. What if you are better for the job than someone with higher seniority?

"If flights get cancelled then I would say part of the problem is lack of planning not because pilots are going to mainline. Only 249 of 1400 applied to go to mainline...not that many."

I would say that it would be poor planning to have 17% of the pilots in a relatively short time leave your company if they didn't have to, especially when you know based on history that many of their replacements are aiming to leave soon for the same destination. As a passenger on Jazz, my preference is highly experienced crews over new hires.

"If flights get cancelled then I would say part of the problem is lack of planning... it has been proven in court that Jazz and mainline are NOT common employer, so training costs at Jazz are a zero issue and do not factor into any equation"

I think you will find that hundreds if not more hours of sim training, ground schools, manuals, paperwork, line indoc, etc definitely factor into somebody's equations. Just because they are not a common employer doesn't mean that Jazz's results don't affect AC's bottom line. If lack of planning could create cancelled flights, it would be complete stupidity to give away a bunch of pilots and make it definite.

[Homerun]

Actually it was assumed in court that there IS a common employer relationship. It was however found that Jazz pilots were not being damaged by this relationship, therefore no remedy was oredered.

[Guest woxof]

"it's bad for morale in the long run to stop someone's career progression because you don't want to replace them. "

Obviously something they have decided they are willing to put up with. When they interviewed you did you tell them that you would most likely be moving on? Please don't say that wasn't in your plans. Perhaps you should have asked if there would be any difficulties in doing so. However, I'm sure Jazz is looking for pilots who will finish their career with them. Perhaps your gamble failed although I suspect not.

"What if there are Jazz pilots that are more qualified (more than 1800 hours)?I thought as a passenger you were concerened about best for job, not training cost....which is it?"

I think if you go to AC then for a while both you and your replacement will be very new and inexperienced on the job. If AC hires from the outside, a suitably experienced pilot of course, then there is 50% less newhires in the AC family and therefore half as much chance of this fare paying pax flying with one.

[Seeker]

I think if you go to AC then for a while both you and your replacement will be very new and inexperienced on the job. If AC hires from the outside,  a suitably experienced pilot of course, then there is 50% less newhires in the AC family and therefore half as much chance of this fare paying pax flying with one. 

There are dozens of different ways to argue this. You could make a strong case for; more experience equals a safer pilot or you could argue that young and enthusiastic trumps old and complacent. I think you'd find if you pored through stats that early milestones in a pilot's career, 500 hours, 1000 hours, 500 on type, 1000 multi etc roughly correspond to drops in accident and incident rates but after a couple of thousand hours the pilot's individual attitude becomes more of a factor. I personally know of several very experienced pilots (10000+ hours) that have had a difficult time transitioning to the CRJ while many "inexperienced" guys seem to manage just fine. This is not to suggest that having 10000 hours is a handicap or that it won't pay dividends on some dark and stormy night but rather that experience alone is a crude yardstick.

I really think that the more significant issue is how the corporation conducts it's affairs and if it's able to do so in a way that supports the employees' natural desire to advance to more responsible and higher renumerated positions. Ideally, ACE would have factored this into the equation and started training the Jazz guys that wanted to go to AC sooner and hired and trained their replacements at Jazz sooner to get ahead of the training logjam. Financially this would have cost more but the longterm benefit would have more than offset the cost.

[Guest woxof]

Nice post Seeker. Whether the long term benefits will offset the cost is difficult to measure as only the training costs can directly be measured. From reading posts on this forum I will say that there appears to already be a serious morale problem at both AC and Jazz for various reasons.

[Guest woxof]

This post was in reply to Rance's post above which he has now deleted. He said Jazz is a sweatshop

"Sure it was in my plans to move on one day and that is nothing to be ashamed of, it is the nature of the industry."

Then you should have been upfront and said so in the interview. Then they could have not hired you and you wouldn't be in your terrible situation today with your sick days possibly through the roof.

"Jazz is run like a sweatshop "

That's an interesting statement. A sweatshop where as you said earlier, a captain makes 100,000 dollars and gets 10 days off a month. I believe you also get a pension, cheap airline tickets around the world among many other benefits and how many weeks holidays a year? As a paying passenger I want AC to hire pilots with positive attitudes. This can be difficult to identify, but equating one of the best flying jobs in Canada, from a financial point of view to a sweatshop might get their attention in an interview, if you dare be completely honest this time. In reality, are any of us?

[Guest woxof]

"Was Jazz upfront in the interview and say we will tell AC not to take pilots from here?I don't think that many pilots would get hired anywhere if part of their condition of employment is that they can never want to move on to Air Canada."

No rebuttal. I'll just suggest people read our comments and decide for themselves.

"I have a hunch that your motives aren't only as a concerned AC passenger.Where do you work and are you planning on going to mainline?"

I prefer not to say where I work, but I am a pilot. As for whether I am planning to go to the mainline, I will quote your words from earlier ..."Have you read any of this thread?".

Check mate . If you do so you will see my first sentence says in part..."As someone who has never applied to Air Canada...". No guarantees, but I'll quote you again, from post number 3 on this thread way back on the first page. "I'll make this my last post on the topic".

[AME]

Only 249 of 1400 applied to go to mainline...not that many."

Lets say that the pilots make up 25% of the employees at JAZZ, so that would make approx 6,000 total give or take, and out of that 6,000 there are 249 that want to transition to ACM that's like 4% of the total employees, when you crunch the numbers it becomes clear that the career aspirations of 4% of your work force is a rather low priority.

Turns out Jazz (Nova) was definately not the correct career path to the majors.Don't get a chance to compete with other resumes OTS

There is a way to remedy that

[rudder]

Yes, everything makes perfect sense.

A Jazz pilot can quit and go to Westjet (the evil empire as far as RM is concerned) and be interviewed at AC and offered a job in a flash. Meanwhile, a Jazz pilot can devote years to transporting Air Canada passengers and the treatment when 'new-hire' positions become available at the mother ship is to wait in cue behind those same pilots from Westjet that they used to work with at Jazz.

Alternatively, a tier 3 pilot can avoid applying to Jazz and effectively enhance their timeliness for interview and job offer at AC.

The bizarre part is that the powers that be think that this is all O.K. - go figure! Pilot hiring at AC makes about as much sense as a Seinfield episode. Here is a suggestion - tear up LOU18 and make the process a free-for-all. At least it would level the playing field for all applicants.

As for Woxof - since you have stated that you neither work for AC nor Jazz, and you have purportedly never applied to AC - why don't you leave the debate to those that are affected and stop worrying about who is flying the plane, as if the AC hiring board was asking for your opinion.

[MAYDAY]

Yes, everything makes perfect sense.

A Jazz pilot can quit and go to Westjet (the evil empire as far as RM is concerned) and be interviewed at AC and offered a job in a flash. Meanwhile, a Jazz pilot can devote years to transporting Air Canada passengers and the treatment when 'new-hire' positions become available at the mother ship is to wait in cue behind those same pilots from Westjet that they used to work with at Jazz.

Alternatively, a tier 3 pilot can avoid applying to Jazz and effectively enhance their timeliness for interview and job offer at AC.

The bizarre part is that the powers that be think that this is all O.K. - go figure! Pilot hiring at AC makes about as much sense as a Seinfield episode. Here is a suggestion - tear up LOU18 and make the process a free-for-all. At least it would level the playing field for all applicants.

As for Woxof - since you have stated that you neither work for AC nor Jazz, and you have purportedly never applied to AC - why don't you leave the debate to those that are affected and stop worrying about who is flying the plane, as if the AC hiring board was asking for your opinion.

Well said rudder.

[Guest Skirt]

WOXOF,

Not that long ago, the best way to get to the mainline was through one of the feeders (AO, AN, ABC). They changed that around 1999/2000 and many people who where only doing what many had done before (going through the feeders) were then "stuck" at one of the feeders. (Don't you Jazz folks get mad at me. "Stuck" was the best word my little wookie brain could come up with.)

Skirt.