Seeker Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 Calling an FA or the guy who loads the aircraft unskilled is like calling the regional pilots "Feeder Pilots". It diminishes your point and reeks of arrogance. I agree there is, and needs to be, a distinction between employees. The dividing line in my mind is whether or not the position requires a licence - ATC, pilots and AMEs. These are the careers that are constantly subject to monitoring from an outside agency and are also the buck-stops-here points in aviation. It's obvious that the non-licenced positions in the company are "unskilled" only by the broadest definition of the term - have some respect and you might get further. seeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest givemeabreak Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 I disagree. I'm sure regional pilots would not be upset to be called feeder pilots. The common word is pilot. Skilled work! The buck stops here? Think again. Examples: An agent screws up and forgets an AG1. Who is the last line of defence? The aircrew. A commuting f/a runs off the plane (to catch their commute) leaving a plane full of people to be dealt with by ony a few, the pilots fill in. A bag loader forgets to latch a door. The aircrew. A lead (what a joke a lead has to marshal someone in, but that is another story) forgets (or is to lazy to walk, never run) to get the lit wands and a pilot tags something because again the ground guys can't park something properly, the pilots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 What about certifications? For example, dispatchers are certified and are subject to monitoring by an outside agency. Flight attendants in many other countries are licensed and, within the next year or so, will be certified in the US. So that dividing line is getting blurred... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Altitude Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 You guys are missing the point. Skilled or Unskilled is not a reflection of the person, it is just an indicator of the amount of skill you need to apply to AC with to get a job. Yes you all have "skills" and perform your jobs excellently and professionally, but the reality in a supply vs demand market is the market will only pay so much for a job that requires no skills when you apply. All the "unskilled" labour at AC, because of the legacy of crown corp socialist attitudes and powerful union negots (and "me too" clauses), are currently paid far in excess of industry standard. If we are to survive we must be able to compete head on domestically with any of the low cost carriers. As long as our unit cost is way in excess of their cost, we can't compete. That is why the unit cost of "unskilled" labour positions needs to be reduced. The pilots and AMEs are already reduced themselves to industry standard. Why do the rest of you feel that the problems will go away if you just stick your head in the sand and don't recognize that you are the problem??? Like I say this has nothing to do with your education, ability, personality, professionalsym, etc. It only has to do with what the market rate is for your positions. If you don't like the term unskilled labour come up with another - it does not change the fact that the majority of people at this airline are still paid too much. And that will affect our long term ability to survive even if we get out of CCAA. Did you read the news, the discount airlines have hit the northatlantic routes. Every part of our traditional business is under attack. Please think about this. The airline will shrink if unit costs are not addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted April 5, 2004 Author Share Posted April 5, 2004 Hey, I'm a pilot so you're barking up the wrong tree. My point is that if you persist in calling the baggage handlers and FAs unskilled you're going to run into a lot of hostility. Perhaps if you arrange your comments around the license issue you won't see as much resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dwb yyc Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 Skilled or unskilled. Educated or uneducated. What ever you call it. If you want to have it market driven then lets open the world to anyone that wants a job at AC. I'm sure all the pilots at West Jet, Jetsgo, Canjet and Jazz that would work for alot cheaper than what is being paid at mainline. Pension no problem, already at DC at Jazz. Most Jazz pilots can work 12 hours without having a cruise pilot. 12-14 hour days no problem. A union that can work with the company. Talk about a savings. Since pilots wages are 26% of all labour cost this is where the big savings are. So let the market work. We will see alot of skilled and educated pilots willing to work for less in wages and working conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Altitude Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 The license issue does not work as the FA's might get a license, which does not change their skill level requirements. A license is no big deal. It once again comes down to how much investment you had to put into earning license. Pilots and AME spend years and thousands of dollars getting educated, appreticing and getting time in to qualify for their licences, before AC will even look at them. The FA's still do not require any pre-employment job skills and it still would only take 3 weeks to earn their license if that was a requirment. That does not magically entitle them to professional level salaries. School teachers who have gone to univercity for a minimum of 5 years earn less than our FA's who come in with no experience or required education. It does not add up. That is the problem with legacy carriers. That is the problem with organized labour at AC. As a group they have convinced themselves that they are worth the wages they earn. As a group they pat themselves on the back and make loud pronouncements and the members buy into the propaganda and everyone rallies around the flag. Problem is, the market has left these groups behind and they stand in isolation and look very silly waving their flags when the press and the public and investors compare them to employees at Westjet (and even our FA's at ZIP), who make a lot less and are very very happy, motivated and pleasant. What is wrong with that picture? Of course members of the AC unions will proclaim that everyone else is out of step, and continue to pat each other on the back. In the mean time investors are watching, and just like Li, will conclude that ACs unions are dillusionary and not worth dealing with. It is time for AC employees to look around them and see the island they are stranded on is sinking fast. They have the power to do something about it, but only if they can break out of their group hug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 You don't see a problem with that,or is that the industry norm...come on here fella's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 My 16 year old daughter could be a F/A with three days training and my 17 year old son could be a rampie with about one hours training. End of story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 Love to watch your 17year old hooking up an FMC, stowing Dangerous goods, operating a forklift or securing a heavy piece of cargo with 1hr training..... Perhaps you should take the time to work alongside the Baggage/cargo folks and learn a little more about what they do for a living.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 And then Johnny can be at the controls trying to fly the thing his 17 year old loaded with one hour training,,,,,,,,, His son will appreciate the insurance money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary FA Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 Last time I checked, it takes 6 weeks for flight attendant training. Oh, and I hope your daughter has 2 years customer service training and is totally fluent in at least 2 languages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 His 16 & 17 yr olds are also Microsoft sim qualified. With an hour or so on the airbus sim they'd be about as ready for flight as they would be in one of the other positions. I'm sorry Johnny but, can't we have a little more respect for each other? The team won't work without the sum of its parts working in unison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 She is fluent in two languages and so is my son. During strikes the MOT has approved training in THREE days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 That figure was the industry norm. At AO we were consistently profitable as measured in the tens of millions on an annual basis with approximately 30 ac. On top of that we paid AC a million a month for brand recognition and recieved what in return? Additionally, AO paid AC 800K a month for ground handling at YZ, UL & OW in return for less than desirable performance. It would be my position that when one works for a prosperous company one can perhaps expect a bigger piece of the pie hence, the reasonable pilot wage paid by AO. On the other hand, and I've never recieved an answer to the question...how is it that AC continued to pay its employees more and more, year after year, and all from an ever shrinking pie? Excepting government, I've noted that any other company following a financial path similar to that of AC will seek concesions from its employees long before it gets itself into a CCAA situation. Instead AC handed out raises and bonuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leading Edge Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Perhaps you would like to work for WJ wages in your position. What would that be a 50% cut or more, and no benefits... Maybe we should treat all employee's like Cathay, how would you like that contract? Oops, you are too old. Be careful what you wish on somebody else, it may come full circle... I would concentrate on your own Departments savings, and talk to YOUR union about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leading Edge Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Jazz lost $90 Million in 2002. Better check your facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted April 6, 2004 Author Share Posted April 6, 2004 "Jazz lost $90 Million in 2002." If you believe that - I have a bridge I'd like to sell you! seeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted April 6, 2004 Author Share Posted April 6, 2004 "Jazz lost $90 Million in 2002." If you believe that - I have a bridge I'd like to sell you! seeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary FA Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Jazz lost $90 Million in 2002.......by subsidizing overpaid Mainline employees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Who doesn't get benefits? Westjet employees are compensated well (although not as good as AC) they have Profit sharing, Share plan etc. The company contributes to the plansas well. Although the base wages are less than you see at AC the profit sharing cheques they get every few months makes up for some of that difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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