EMB's going to JAZZ ?

[Guest neo]

Dork,

If you don't stop bunkering down, I'm gonna come down there and slap ya. (Totally just kidding, dude!)

Your thinking would make sense, except for the unfortunate consequences of reality, viz: Total number of JAZZ ALPA pilots + Total number of ex-CAIL pilots = Total number of OAC ACPA pilots. Figure a way around that, and you might have a deal. Strictly, totally, absolutely just my own opinion. FWIW.

neo

[ccairspace]

"Neither side can agree on the meaning of FAIR."

I'm flabergasted, dumbfounded, shocked, amazed, astounded and astonished that no one yet has posted a dictionary definition of "fair".

ccairspace

[GDR]

No sweat

fair n. travelling entertainment with stalls and machines to ride on, etc.; exhibition of commercial or industrial products.

That wasn't so hard.

[.70 mach]

"Total number of JAZZ ALPA pilots + Total number of ex-CAIL pilots = Total number of OAC ACPA pilots"

Neo,

You are assuming that every Jazz pilot will vote ALPA and every ex-CAIL pilot will vote ALPA as well....................take a look at our list and you will see from around 850 up to 1350 these are still young pilots in there thirties that want a career. Heck I'd vote ACPA if it enabled the "Race to the Bottom" to end, allowed movement within our ranks and gave our members a progressive career and salary too.... sign me up !

[Guest neo]

.70 Mach,

I understand where you're coming from and on the surface it makes sense. But check this:

The AC pilots have recently been subjected to a seniority agreement which places a very large number of the OAC pilots at the bottom of the list. The same agreement puts the majority of the OCP pilots higher on the list, and away from the aircraft that would be in contention vis-a-vis JAZZ.

If JAZZ, OCP, and OAC are all in one union, under one seniority list, then the JAZZ and OCP pilots could agree to send the contentious aircraft to JAZZ, with little or no impact on the OCP, but to the serious detriment of the OAC. Why would the JAZZ and OCP pilots do this? Because the JAZZ pilots want the aircraft and because both groups have continually and demonstratbly shown their dislike towards the OAC pilots.

It matters not which union represents the combined group of pilots, be it ACPA, ACPA, or (from my distant past) the CBRTGW: what matters in this case is, where will the shít stick when it's thrown in the fan.

Strictly my observation from about as far from ACPA headquarters as you can get.

neo

[GTFA]

I vote ACPA now.

They have said in public that they wish to promote and protect the piloting profession in Canada.

Let's let them have a go at it. Can they be any worse than ALPA in the US?

GTFA

[.70 mach]

"The same agreement puts the majority of the OCP pilots higher on the list, and away from the aircraft that would be in contention vis-a-vis JAZZ."

In reality there should be no aircraft in contention. Here let me explain this, each group has for arguments sake their set aircraft fleet. Jazz with the Dash/CRJ and the mainline with the 340 down to the EMB170. If ever their came a time when we find ourselves back in a state of CCAA and the company wants to move (for examples sake) the EMB to be operated under the Jazz banner and working conditions, then it should come with the crews themselves. Make specific language that allows a group to protect their jobs and members. Do you not think it is better that way than to have us compete for each others jobs. You will find in about five years, senior Jazz members will probably still be flying the CRJ and junior members will be bidding for jobs such as FO/RP on certain aircraft that allowed better financial gain than the CRJ FO position. Again we have to look at what benefits the mainline pilots to be willing to continue these discussions again. The desire to end any pilot feud/whipsaw (If we fail to succeed, our airline pilot profession may be destined to a bleak and agonizing future). Or for the better part allow layoff protection to occur for mainline pilots on a seniority based system. Put specific fences and a timeline on them and after the time expires then let your number hold the position.

" then the JAZZ and OCP pilots could agree to send the contentious aircraft to JAZZ, with little or no impact on the OCP, but to the serious detriment of the OAC. Why would the JAZZ and OCP pilots do this? Because the JAZZ pilots want the aircraft and because both groups have continually and demonstrably shown their dislike towards the OAC pilots."

Neo you are giving the Jazz group too much credit to think they could ever consider that. Remember at the end of the day the ex-CAIL pilots are part of ACPA and they will putting their decisions based on an association to ACPA. Why would they want to "get togther" with the Jazz folks. I say it's a non issue more important is the fact for this to be put back on the rails, that the members from ALPA have to consider the representation of ACPA. Or even more have certain members on the MEC on a ratio base. Example Jazz has 1350 pilots maybe three members, Mainline has 3500 pilots it only stands to reason that their representation should be larger. All I'm doing is to bring some kind of solution to the mess we are in.

[GTFA]

"" then the JAZZ and OCP pilots could agree to send the contentious aircraft to JAZZ, with little or no impact on the OCP, but to the serious detriment of the OAC. Why would the JAZZ and OCP pilots do this? Because the JAZZ pilots want the aircraft and because both groups have continually and demonstrably shown their dislike towards the OAC pilots.""

"Neo you are giving the Jazz group too much credit to think they could ever consider that."

.07,

It's not too much credit, it's the wrong kind of credit. I don't think there is any Macheavelian plot to overthrow anyone who could be labelled as OAC. The plot, I beleive is to bring stability to the pilot group within ACE. Period.

GTFA

PS your idea stated above is bang on and CAN work.

[AME]

Here's a little food for thought (from someone who shouldn't say anything)

What do you think will happen during the next down cycle at AC (there's always a down cycle) Jazz will by then have some where around 65 RJs which are their "Large" aircraft so when the time comes to park some fins which ones do you see being parked and which company will see lay-offs????

One more question while I'm at it, why would a junior Jazz pilot want an endtail list when they would be so much better off if they were hired OTS????

[GTFA]

Hi AME,

You asked: "... why would a junior Jazz pilot want an endtail list when they would be so much better off if they were hired OTS???? "

If there is a mutually tailended list, as it seems a lot of people can wrap their minds around, A junior pilot at JAZZ would end up with at least the same opportunity for advancement as he would have in an OTS hire.

There is very little incentive for a senior jazz captain to move into the most junior mainline positions which would leave them open for JJ's (Junior Jazz). This would put them well ahead of where they were before. There would be more options for everyone and no need to give up your seniority as long as you work for ACE!

This could have worked along time ago if so many "feeder" guys didn't cut-n-run. And of course therein lies the weakness for JJ's in supporting the mutually tailended scenario. If they are more concerned with their own personal situation without regard for the rest of his peers the same will happen again, and again, and again. Wouldn't suprise me in the least as it seems that with each new generation the desires of the one are upstaging the needs of the many.

GTFA

[.70 mach]

"What do you think will happen during the next down cycle at AC (there's always a down cycle) Jazz will by then have some where around 65 RJs which are their "Large" aircraft so when the time comes to park some fins which ones do you see being parked and which company will see lay-offs????"

If someone can give you an accurate answer to the question could they then pick some 649 numbers for me for Saturday night. More than likely the corporation will park the aircraft they feel at the time are not economical to their business plan. So it really has nothing to do with Jazz's RJ's being their "large" aircraft more like which aircraft in the ACE fleet is not pulling their weight. And if it's the CRJ or say the 767 then those divisions I'm sure will feel the pain. How could one really speculate what will happen in the next downturn..

"One more question while I'm at it, why would a junior Jazz pilot want an entail list when they would be so much better off if they were hired OTS???? "

Will they really be better off ? I think as a whole we all will be better off together without the thought of the next downturn in the cycle we don't have to worry so much about some VP sneaking around signing contracts for flying. Strength in numbers as they say. And remember who's to say they will take us as OTS candidates.......and if they do I'm sure it will only be at a very minimum going through each class not like the old days. If every junior pilot was guaranteed an interview then there might be a desire for the very junior ranks. But in the long run, pilots in the AC family will be better off knowing that they can enjoy a progressive career without the thought of continuing the "race to the bottom".

[Vsplat]

Maybe the problem is the bargaining of concrete items together with intangibles.

Two scenarios:

1) Jazz is end-tailed to the mainline, senior Jazz pilot below junior (now on furlough) AC pilot. This works for the AC mainline because it hurts none of their members. This does not work (from what I gather) for the Jazz pilots, because the senior Jazz pilots, Captains for argument sake, worry that they will lose their seat. ACPA argues in turn that there is future value to them via a flow-through lock. The flip side of this, Jazz argues that they should take no hit as they bring value to the corporation and the ACPA membership by avoiding the "race to the bottom".

2) Jazz is merged with some form of ratio. This works for some of the senior Jazz pilots as it offers the best of both worlds - no sacrifice and all of the up side, while AC pilots on furlough wait longer for recall and spend more time in the Pay Group. Of course, ACPA does not like anything that hurts a member. The argument, again, is future value. Also, I say "some of the senior Jazz pilots", because there remains a group for which DOH without compromise appears to be the only solution.

I realise that both of these are twisted bits of text. The bottom line is that in each scenario a group is trying to hold on to what it has now and improve its future, while arguing that the other party should sacrifice a bit for the sake of future value.

Arguing future value in this discussion, tempting though it may be, is a mistake, in my view. "Future value" simply builds expectations of payout, with interest, at some point down the road and creates the sense of entitlement that has crippled this airline.

The fact is that we cannot control the future. It lies in the hands of people in ravaged countries with hidden diseases and social causes yet to frighten the world. Ask those who are living the reality of CCAA pay cuts and demotions what happened to their "future value".

Any hope of agreement lies in a deal that works for all parties from Day One. The only way I see to do that is to deal with concrete items. How will pay be protected? How will lifestyle be protected? The rest is gravy.

In my opinion

Vs

[GDR]

I've posted the idea of a double tail end merger so many times now that I can hear everyone saying "not again", but it still seems to me that if you put the Jazz pilots at the bottom of the mainline list, and the mainline pilots at the bottom of the Jazz list it would serve everyone well except those with an axe to grind.

New hires would go at the bottom of both lists. Eventually when all the current pilots are retired the lists will be the same and you then have one list.

JMHO

Greg

[GTFA]

I've posted the idea of a double tail end merger so many times now that I can hear everyone saying "not again", but it still seems to me that if you put the Jazz pilots at the bottom of the mainline list, and the mainline pilots at the bottom of the Jazz list it would serve everyone well except those with an axe to grind.

New hires would go at the bottom of both lists. Eventually when all the current pilots are retired the lists will be the same and you then have one list.

JMHO

Greg

Yup,

It's just that easy.

Why couldn't the GSC gang have come up with it?????

[.70 mach]

Ask our union leaders at Jazz and just see what kind of answer you get.

[buzz]

That was the CRA/CAIL deal (bottom/bottom) - and the fight from within was un-frikkin-believable.

It ain't as easy as you might think...

b

[.70 mach]

"That was the CRA/CAIL deal (bottom/bottom) - and the fight from within was un-frikkin-believable."

I was there at CRA as well and maybe time has passed and I couldn't remember too much but the words from Mack Jones at the time was half way into the process of the flowthrough he called it a" seamless " integration " from the two companies. You will always have some problems and some pilots don't make the grade, some pilots were allowed to flow up earlier than others (i.e. the ATR pilots ) and some held back (i.e. the training check pilots on the F28 ).

But was LOU 54 (think that's what it was called ) a true BOTL/BOTL, were the CAIL pilots allowed in a furlough situation to be placed on the CRA list.

Some of the mechanics of the flowthrough needed to be addressed like you were asked two weeks before if you are ready to leave CRA and if you choose not to go then you forever gave up your rights to go. Stuff like that could be addressed. But remember the general idea was mutual desire to facilitate the employment opportunities for CRA pilots. Whereas they flowed over 200 + pilots to Canadian allowed for 200+ upgrades and 200+ newhires off the street. And pilots were seeing the left seat of the F28 in under 2 years.

[buzz]

It took alot of work to make the flow to the mainline work as well as it did. For a period of time near the mid-point of the flowthrough operation, CAIL started rejecting about 50% of the candidates due to serum cholesterol. It took the threat of a very public appeal to the human rights tribunal to make the Company back down. That's just one example.

The fight I referred to in my previous post, though, was from the CRA group on how the CAIL flow to the CRA list would occur if it came to pass (it never did, of course). Yes, it was a true BOTL/BOTL arrangement as it credited CAIL pilots their seniority up to July 1991, which was the hire date of the junior CRA pilot at the time. But the pilots who were hired at CRA after the implementation of the flowthrough (who, by the way, were in a very large part hired because of vacancies created by the flowthrough) disapproved of an arrangement where a reverse flow could place anyone ahead of them, even if it was for vacancies (ie no bumping).

The fact is that the CAIL flowthrough was entered into in good faith, and benefited a large number of regional pilots - including the ones that didn't go, whether through enhanced seniority by other more senior pilots leaving, or as you alluded to .70, made possible 2 year F28 Captains.

As the demographics change, the impetus that creates the original agreement fades. It would take some serious, long-sighted leadership to keep a deal on track. That sort of thing seems to be missing in the current scenario... as well as the conditions that would facilitate it's creation in the first place.

buzz

[GTFA]

Another price that was paid in order to achieve the CRA CAIL flowthrough was a serious neglect of WAWCON issues that needed udating in the CRA CA. There was a VERY vocal group that objected to the flowthrough even though they may have been able to benefit from it.

One of the points of contention was that all of the MEC who negotiatied the "deal" took the flowthrough ASAP and left the resultant mess to be dealt with by others.

Sure there were a lot of hires and upgarades that immediatley resulted, but where has it got anybody now? Solution? Or, sell-out by bargaining committee?

I think that if the CRAs had stuck with negots a little longer and harder, a more meaningful outcome may have been realized.

GTFA

This is one of the issues that brings a negative emotional aspect to current discussions and needs to be put behind us. I only bring it up to remind those involved that each turn has it's pitfalls and both sides must be willing to forego opportunities to take advantage of each other for personal or political gain. We must be willing to be patient and perservere for the real solution. Not just the one with the best WHAM!

[wrench]

I heard this morning that Cerberus is pushing to give all the EMB's to JAZZ. Anyone with true info can elaborate furthermore ?

Thanks,

MHC

Guess mainline found out that they have cold weather operational issues too.... don't want another CRJ fiasco..... give them to Jazz.

[Vsplat]

And your source of the cold weather issues is???

Vs

[Guest neo]