EMB's going to JAZZ ?

[GTFA]

You are right YYC I/C

This is not about Labour Law. Nor is it about Rights under the labour Code.

This is about three parties getting their shittogether and getting on with business in a fair and equitable fashion.

No assumptions.

No grudges.

No pride.

No fear.

No turning back!

Man, if we could get this outta the way so much more would be possible for so many. And I mean operationally as well as corporately on top of any pilot considerations.

GTFA

[Kid]

A single list of pilots to crew ACE's aircraft would unarguably be a benefit to all. Even the Old boys at Mainline. I don't think anyone has disputed this. The conflict lies in the method.

But AME raises a good question. Even if the desire to merge the two groups existed with in , are they indeed ACE`s aircraft or do they belong to two separate, wholly owned subsidiaries? Does this re-visit the whole common employer issue aqain, especially if there is no incentive for the company to have a common seniority list? Perhaps the company itself would become the greatest opponent to such a proposal.

Kid

[buzz]

Man, if we could get this outta the way so much more would be possible for so many. And I mean operationally as well as corporately on top of any pilot considerations.

You seem to assume that the company(s) would just sign off on this process.

I don't believe that would be the case. There wouldn't be any upside really for the mainline, as Jazz pilots would come with costs attached that wouldn't be there for street hires. As well, a hiring boom causes painful (and expensive) turnover at the subsidiary.

The CRA/CAIL example required an open contract and some seriously ugly bargaining with the employer to close the deal. Since the planets don't align until 2009 in our case, I think the conditions just don't exist right now.

buzz

[.70 mach]

"The CRA/CAIL example required an open contract and some seriously ugly bargaining with the employer to close the deal. Since the planets don't align until 2009 in our case, I think the conditions just don't exist right now."

You can also just make an amendment to the contract like an LOU........bottom line is there is an opportunity for the JAZZ members to take , if they want it.

Or you'll see a repeat of the nineties with the bottom of the list leaving.

[Kid]

You can also just make an amendment to the contract like an LOU........bottom line is there is an opportunity for the JAZZ members to take , if they want it.

.7,

It sounds like you are implying that the Jazz members have all the say in this matter, last time I checked there were three partys involved (four if you give Jazz management some token recognition).

[.70 mach]

Yeah I guess that's the way it did look..... I will reiterate my position.... after what had happened in the nineties with very very junior members leaving the connectors for the mainline and the people that stayed were actually the senior members either happy with life at the connectors or unhappy with the turn-around of the Picher award. Either way these are the members that stand to gain this time around from the regional side.

Agreeing to a bottom of the list is better I feel than just allowing the bottom 100 pilots to rotate from the bottom of our list.

Get the company involved and see just how much it would cost. They want a let on the min fleet guarantee on the Jazz side or they have to cancel our Schedule B which comes with certain productivities that will be lost. This is just one example of we as a group could work with the company.

[AME]

A merged list brings up more questions, if, and I doubt it will ever happen, there was a single list, which company controls and sets the hiring criteria??? which company pays for the transition costs in both an up bid and a down bid???, assuming an end tail, Jazz would be required to bear costs in both directions.

[CAT3DUAL]

Again, Jazz brings nothing to the table, you want our jobs, but we don't want yours! So, starting the end of 05 when we start hiring from the street for position at the mainline, the bottom of the list is going to look pretty good for your members. Mark my words we will not give up one number unless it's behind the last pilot on the last 550 course. We don't care where that guy came from, the mil, corporate, bush, or the F/O sitting next to you on the Dash. Makes no difference, we will protect that guys number. And as far as I know it would require a reopener on the contract to even talk about this, ACPA won't even bother unless there’s something in it for them. Come to think of it we are beating a dead horse here, under the present circumstances; it’s just not going to happen.

[John S.]

. . . .  Mark my words . . . . . under the present circumstances; it’s just not going to happen.

Then why do you seem to get so passionate about this subject?

[GTFA]

CAT III Dual,

This horse is NOT dead and is about to rear up and buck us in the head yet again.

This situation is NOT about ACPA vs. ALPA it about pilots vs. Corp.

GTFA

Oh, by the way, how much was ACPA asked to give up during the last GSC negots? What kind of a sacrifice was ACPA asked to give. How much worse off were ACPA pilots going to be as a result of joining the ALPA pilots in a single list?

[Vsplat]

GTFA and others.

There are some fundamentals that have not, at least to my eyes, surfaced in this thread.

As I see them, they are (in no particular order);

1) the term "union" is Orewellian. Unions such as ACPA and ALPA do not represent a universal view. As such, there is no "union" of will. These structures move in the direction of the most powerful internal interest group.

2) Both ACPA and ALPA have at their senior levels combatants in the AO-ACPA lawsuit. No matter the outcome of that action, there is so much hatred of the other party that the solution makes Northern Ireland look easy.

3) Like the company managers these unions fight (partnership is a laughable term given the record), union leaders in both ACPA and ALPA brutally filter and spin the information they send their membership, if they deign to give out information at all. The level of accountability for doing so is not as high as it is for the company, as there are no shareholders to face at the end of the day. The fact is, the voting line pilot generally supports who they like. That is based, well, on the information they get from the union. The loop is closed.

4) If you have a leadership that is wedded to a concept that is toxic to merging, controls the information regarding that merger and elects to maintain a Bush-like fear regarding the merger in its membership, achieving any level of success is next to impossible.

Here is my summary of the information that I have seen, recently, in circulation:

1) ALPA wants the merger because it will make AC an ALPA carrier, after which the dormant ALPA agenda will resurface;

2) No one really believes that ALPA can control the AO-lawsuit gang, so once inside they have a real chance of succeeding;

3) ALPA Jazz and the Canadi>n Merger committee are linked with a joint agenda to scupper the OAC "original" ACPA members

I think you get the picture. Xenophobic. Of course, Mr. DiCintio did not help matters much with the press nonesense and the double contract with Calin. Even to those who were forwarding a balanced view, there is no disguising this individual's wish to transfer wealth from ACPA members to ALPA members. Not exactly the first step to a long and healthy marriage.

So, we have two leaderships with powerful influences from folks who hate the merger concept, a sustained information campaign from both sides saying "we good, they bad" which begs the question, "why would we ever want to join" and finally, recent and ongoing attempts to transfer entire fleets to ALPA from under the feet of ACPA members. (And, of course, vice versa!)

I agree that one voice would be stronger. The myth is that either side has one voice of its own at the moment. The truth is that there would not be one voice in a merged unit. The grab would continue, perhaps at the LEC level, perhaps elsewhere.

The race to the bottom does not have to be solved with a merger. Each of ALPA and ACPA had a decision on how to proceed in this. If the two cannot even agree to peacefully coexist and not pursue an agenda of harm to the other, how can they ever go as far as merging?

A long epistle, must be the coffee

Vs

[Kid]

Vsplat,

My compliments (for what they`re worth) on a rational and insightful perspective.

Kid

[Guest Kilo Mike]

Right on Vsplat.

Pretty much nailed it. Here we sit 10 years later on what has the appearance of another hiring cycle ... and they say history doesn't repeat

Folks are going to have to seriously review where they want to be and get on with life. Waiting for this thing to solve itself would be waste of time IMO. Make a decission, act on it and don't look back. Otherwise you'll see the same faces bemoaning the same cr*p that happened over a decade ago... Lifes too short.

[GTFA]

GTFA and others.

There are some fundamentals that have not, at least to my eyes, surfaced in this thread.

As I see them, they are (in no particular order);

1) the term "union" is Orewellian. Unions such as ACPA and ALPA do not represent a universal view. As such, there is no "union" of will. These structures move in the direction of the most powerful internal interest group.

Call them what ever you want. They are representing two different groups who are less different than they may think and most of their issues overlap.

2) Both ACPA and ALPA have at their senior levels combatants in the AO-ACPA lawsuit. No matter the outcome of that action, there is so much hatred of the other party that the solution makes Northern Ireland look easy.

There are also many among the so called combatant group that would FAR rather see the issue resolved in the GSC realm than through the court.

3) Like the company managers these unions fight (partnership is a laughable term given the record), union leaders in both ACPA and ALPA brutally filter and spin the information they send their membership, if they deign to give out information at all. The level of accountability for doing so is not as high as it is for the company, as there are no shareholders to face at the end of the day. The fact is, the voting line pilot generally supports who they like. That is based, well, on the information they get from the union. The loop is closed.

The loop is NOT closed. A little f2f time gows a long way.

4) If you have a leadership that is wedded to a concept that is toxic to merging, controls the information regarding that merger and elects to maintain a Bush-like fear regarding the merger in its membership, achieving any level of success is next to impossible.

Sounds like a review of the "Jets-R-Us" campaign.

Here is my summary of the information that I have seen, recently, in circulation:

1) ALPA wants the merger because it will make AC an ALPA carrier, after which the dormant ALPA agenda will resurface;

ALPA should be advised to NOT interfere in the free will of these pilot groups. If they want to represent the whole gang then they should stand for consideration.

2) No one really believes that ALPA can control the AO-lawsuit gang, so once inside they have a real chance of succeeding;

Forget about the AO-lawsuit gang. They only represent themselves.

3) ALPA Jazz and the Canadi>n Merger committee are linked with a joint agenda to scupper the OAC "original" ACPA members

OH MY GAWD man. Get over it. It just ain't true.

I think you get the picture. Xenophobic. Of course, Mr. DiCintio did not help matters much with the press nonesense and the double contract with Calin. Even to those who were forwarding a balanced view, there is no disguising this individual's wish to transfer wealth from ACPA members to ALPA members. Not exactly the first step to a long and healthy marriage.

So, we have two leaderships with powerful influences from folks who hate the merger concept, a sustained information campaign from both sides saying "we good, they bad" which begs the question, "why would we ever want to join" and finally, recent and ongoing attempts to transfer entire fleets to ALPA from under the feet of ACPA members. (And, of course, vice versa!)

The tides are changing my anonymous friend.

I agree that one voice would be stronger. The myth is that either side has one voice of its own at the moment. The truth is that there would not be one voice in a merged unit. The grab would continue, perhaps at the LEC level, perhaps elsewhere.

Forget about the politics and lets see if we can reinject a pilot's career with a little common sense.

The race to the bottom does not have to be solved with a merger. Each of ALPA and ACPA had a decision on how to proceed in this. If the two cannot even agree to peacefully coexist and not pursue an agenda of harm to the other, how can they ever go as far as merging?

As long as one group is affecting the Wages and working conditionsh of the other, the ONLY solution is to merge.

A long epistle, must be the coffee.

Is this what they mean by "Java jive"?

[ChicoChico]

My 2 cents worth (if that). The onus is on the Jazz pilots to make a deal with ACPA. Once an ACPA pilot moves off the EMB/RP position Jazz jobs are less than desirable and the motivation to "merge" is lost. Therefore (using this logic) the majority of AC pilots could care less about a merger with Jazz.

On the other hand the prospects for a junior (younger) Jazz pilot are greatly enhanced if they are able to flow-through to AC. Ok some might want to stay at Jazz but if money is any measure many would like to move up.

With the new post-CCAA contract any AC hiring will come not necessarily from Jazz. Actually hiring from Jazz would almost be counter productive. Jazz pilots will likely have to apply like any other Off The Street pilot. These OTS will come from just about anywhere.

Therefore it is my contention that Jazz must act if they want to sew up a deal. ACPA's only motivation would be to protect junior jobs in the event of a layoff - whoops too late for that.

Anyway that's my take from a fairly senior (read old) AC pilot point of view.

Chico

[Guest Kilo Mike]

Forget about the AO-lawsuit gang. They only represent themselves.

I agree they are only out for themselve. The problem is that if you merge up, then you are allowing these fringe elements access to the very folks that they wish to hurt financially. I find it rather simplistic to just say "fawgetaboutit" if for nothing else..a flight saftey point of view

joint agenda to scupper the OAC "original" ACPA members

OH MY GAWD man. Get over it. It just ain't true.

With all do respect GTFA, discussions with some of the players does lend some credibility to this so-called threat. Especially when you couple it with the "fringe" faction that seems lawsuit slap happy. It's rather easy to dismiss people's hesitations and apprehensions when you aren't the focus of the threat.

It's my opinion that there wouldn't be any point discussing any merger with Jazz until the lawsuit is buried/withdrawn and the Cdn / OAC list is completely finalized and all appeals are exhausted. The other aspect is let's see where Jazz ends up in the next while. There may be no basis for merge if things are sold off.... It may even prevent a prospective buyer from purchasing Jazz.

Food for thought.

[GTFA]

Thanks Kilo Mike.

It looks as thought each group is their own worst enemy with regard to scope/merger issues.

Just another reason to not allow the "fringe" to run the agenda.

GTFA

[Vsplat]

GTFA, exactly. Each group IS their own worst enemy. But then again, that statement could be said about pilots in general.

How many friends have we buried working for slimey outfits for peanuts (or even paying for the job), flying broken aircraft in terrible weather. Why? Because if they didn't, the next guy would.

WRT the fringe, just like parties that get elected "on the split", the gridlock between the many self-interests make it pretty easy for an organised group to gain the agenda. That is what has happened already and could certainly happen in the future.

There are ways to deal with all of this. All it takes is organisation and cooperation. But that all starts with accurate, honest, communication and mutual non-aggression. I'm waiting for that phase to start, but I'm not holding my breath....

Cheers

Vs

[.70 mach]

Part of the problem as I see it back in the late eighties early nineties you had the Dash coming on the scene replacing certain routes flown by the DC-9 and the fight was on to see who would fly the 25 CRJ's. Now we fast forward to now and we have Jazz's CRJ chipping away at routes the 319/320 are doing. Sure the Embraer is going to be on line in the fall but so is the CRJ 705. You can start to see that the airlines operating the Embraer in the US, ala US Airways Express and United Express that these aircraft are down at their regional arm. I'm not making that fact to state that Jazz should be operating these aircraft, just that where they are being operated and just how long do you think Jazz will wait before they to try to get their "mitts "on those as well.

I'm going into my eighth year here and nothing seems to change at Jazz .You have senior members exchanging their Dash 8 aircraft for the CRJ and FO's just seem to be led around by a union that has a problem with communication. Some just want a healthy relationship with the parent company and allow for one to be able to make choices in their career rather than the choice of just FO at Jazz.

Below is a paragraph from the magazine Airline Pilot.

"Over the decades, management shifted it's methods of attack, but it's goal remained the same: to split pilots from one another. Today, airline brands employ elaborate strategies to get pilots who work for separate companies to compete for work on a "lowest bid" basis. Of all the challenges vexing us in the first years of the 21st century, this may be the greatest. If we accept status quo, the race to the bottom will continue. But if we join together, some group of pilots within one brand will develop a prototype model that stops the bleeding. If "necessity," indeed, is the mother of invention, we have all the "necessity" we need to invent that new model."

[GTFA]

There are ways to deal with all of this. All it takes is organisation and cooperation. But that all starts with accurate, honest, communication and mutual non-aggression. I'm waiting for that phase to start, but I'm not holding my breath....

Cheers

Vs

The process had started with the GSC initiative but it unfortunatley lost momentum.

Is there momentum once again relative to the quote from .70?

I hope so.

GTFA

[.70 mach]

Below is a quote from the ACPA side from a meeting of the Association of Star Alliance Pilots in November.

"Association of Star Alliance Pilots (ASAP) The ASAP semi-annual meeting was held November 8 - 11, 2004. Many of the large member associations were in attendance, while ACPA was represented by your President and Secretary-Treasurer, Captain Andy Wilson.

One main function of these meetings is to communicate member reports on the current status of affairs at individual STAR airlines. Painfully evident, was the common world wide disease of "Race-to-the-Bottom". We noted the emergence of more segmented and un-organized pilot groups that enable continuous whip-sawing and de-stabilization of pilot careers. In the USA, this has led to outright destruction of pensions, pay, and working conditions. In Europe, the consolidation of more countries from the former "Eastern Bloc" into the European Union adds to the problems with more former flag carrier airlines "making Investments" in relatively have-not regional airlines.

World airlines are experiencing a massive de-regulated environment in which to transform their corporate structures. By the same "playbook", non-traditional corporate de-consolidation has transformed airlines into holding companies with ancillary partnerships, affiliates, including equity sharing and separation of operations, and contracting out. All must recognize that our urgent response must begin at home. ACPA must re-new efforts to address the division and acrimony that exists across our entire pilot community in Canada. If we fail to succeed, our airline pilot profession may be destined to a bleak and agonizing future."

So by the quote I had above from the ALPA Airline Pilot magazine to the couple paragraphs from the Star Alliance Pilots meeting you see a very familiar tone to each side. The "Race to the Bottom " is happening here right in our backyard guys time to wake up.

What we need from both sides is strong leadership to take this to the next level. Negotiate in a fair, open and reasonable manner. When I say fair, I mean have realistic expectations. A Jazz pilot will never be ahead of any ACPA pilot on the list. There I said it, and it wasn't even that hard. Pick members for committees that want to see this through not just to be there to "dig up old bones".

[John S.]

Negotiate in a fair, open and reasonable manner. When I say fair, I mean have realistic expectations.

Fair.

That word has been causing tribulations for over ten years. Neither side can agree on the meaning of FAIR.

[.70 mach]

"Neither side can agree on the meaning of FAIR."

John,

Well lets just for arguments sake that both sides were right. There now can we start with a clean slate.

[John S.]

point seven,

It will only be a clean slate until someone says "It's only fair that. . . . . "

[Dork]

.70 MACH

" A Jazz pilot will never be ahead of any ACPA pilot on the list. There I said it, and it wasn't even that hard. Pick members for committees that want to see this through not just to be there to "dig up old bones".

With ideas floated like this one you may have just stuck the right chord to get something done. I could only wish you all the best to get folks to support such an initiative.

Back to the bunker.