Flightlevels Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 sheesh I'm only a bag chucker guys! WJFA, I think you might want to check out other perdiems around the industry, will another 4 0r 5 bucks a day make you happy? I'm thinking not. will the fact that a new adop system that cost 1.1 million dollars takes time to iron out the bugs. I think as little as two years ago you knew about the job, it's perdiems it's pay and it's intentions to keep one base out west. nobody forced you to take the job. I suspect you just jumped into it not knowing a thing about deadheading etc..all airlines have the same problem, abiet some get 1/2 credit for it. but they still bitch about deadheading. Maybe you should just move on and cut your losses and be happier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjafa Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 sheesh I'm only a bag chucker guys! WJFA, I think you might want to check out other perdiems around the industry, will another 4 0r 5 bucks a day make you happy? I'm thinking not. will the fact that a new adop system that cost 1.1 million dollars takes time to iron out the bugs. I think as little as two years ago you knew about the job, it's perdiems it's pay and it's intentions to keep one base out west. nobody forced you to take the job. I suspect you just jumped into it not knowing a thing about deadheading etc..all airlines have the same problem, abiet some get 1/2 credit for it. but they still bitch about deadheading. Maybe you should just move on and cut your losses and be happier. Flightlevels: I seem to have irked you with my post in some way when others applauded it. What part of it made you uncomfortable? Was it the part where I honestly revealed that the unpaid deadheading and the low perdiems were my *only* and *minor* miffs with my job. Read the post again without being defensive, and maybe you will come to a different conclusion as to my contentment and happiness at WJ. If not consider this: WJ FA's (I can't speak for pilots) have the second lowest starting wage for FA's in Canada, behind Jetsgo who starts at $19/hr. WJ FA's are not paid for deadheading except for with their per diems (which as I understand it are the lowest in Canada, correct me if I'm wrong). An example of when this really hits home is when in the month of December you have 6 deadheading legs that total over 25 hours. This is 25 hours paid at $1.95/hr in uniform, what one would normally consider a half a work week at a "9-5er" done for chump change. It's not a big deal when deadheading is kept to a minimum, but I recently worked with an FA who had 9 deadhead legs in Dec totalling approx. 30 hours. Instances like these make it hard to be pleased with a low perdiem and/or unpaid deadheading. "Will another 4 or 5 bucks a day make you happy?" Check your info on per diems; it was posted recently on the forum the stats of some carriers here. Transat for example paying more than $4.00/hr per diem. That my friend, works out to be more than a few bucks a day. That's close to double what we receive, making it more like 48 bucks/day more. When you're gone for 4 days, that's $192. Four pairings at 4 days in length for the entire month would make to be $768 more/month. That's not just a few bucks. Let me clarify again though, I am not asking for equal per diems to AT, as our jobs, time away from home, and destinations are different. Just trying to point out that a raised per diem equals more than just a few bucks a day. As well, I knew about the pay, the per diems, and the intentions to keep the base out west prior to applying for employment with WJ. One of my dearest friends has been an FA for 4 years and was always candid about her job with me. It was her stories and enthusiasm that prompted me to quit the "well paying, ill-satisfying" job I held previously. The industry is changing, the demands are changing, the people are changing and in order to keep up, the companies will have to change and give a little, too. As I said before, if my biggest worries are the two mentioned above, then I know how well I've got it. Maybe you as a bag chucker should shadow an FA for a day? I spent a day on the ramp with you kids this summer. It may give you a taste of what goes on up in the skies. If not, think about how you would feel being in uniform and at work (maybe even just hanging out and not hucking bags as compared to deadheading), but not getting paid for it for more than 20 hours a month. Read the original reply again like I said with a more open mind and a less defensive attitude and get back to me, I'll be interested to see if you change your approach. We're all on the same team, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fester Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 To underscore wjafa's comments on the per diums: they can be a significant part of an f/a's income. Not too long ago, my wife was recieving around $600/mo per diums at Wardair (ah, now THAT was an airline:). Remember, this is tax-free cash in your hand, and if you don't spend it all on the road, you can buy nice Christmas presents at the end of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnaker Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Flightlevels: I seem to have irked you with my post in some way when others applauded it. What part of it made you uncomfortable? Was it the part where I honestly revealed that the unpaid deadheading and the low perdiems were my *only* and *minor* miffs with my job. Read the post again without being defensive, and maybe you will come to a different conclusion as to my contentment and happiness at WJ. If not consider this: WJ FA's (I can't speak for pilots) have the second lowest starting wage for FA's in Canada, behind Jetsgo who starts at $19/hr. WJ FA's are not paid for deadheading except for with their per diems (which as I understand it are the lowest in Canada, correct me if I'm wrong). An example of when this really hits home is when in the month of December you have 6 deadheading legs that total over 25 hours. This is 25 hours paid at $1.95/hr in uniform, what one would normally consider a half a work week at a "9-5er" done for chump change. It's not a big deal when deadheading is kept to a minimum, but I recently worked with an FA who had 9 deadhead legs in Dec totalling approx. 30 hours. Instances like these make it hard to be pleased with a low perdiem and/or unpaid deadheading. "Will another 4 or 5 bucks a day make you happy?" Check your info on per diems; it was posted recently on the forum the stats of some carriers here. Transat for example paying more than $4.00/hr per diem. That my friend, works out to be more than a few bucks a day. That's close to double what we receive, making it more like 48 bucks/day more. When you're gone for 4 days, that's $192. Four pairings at 4 days in length for the entire month would make to be $768 more/month. That's not just a few bucks. Let me clarify again though, I am not asking for equal per diems to AT, as our jobs, time away from home, and destinations are different. Just trying to point out that a raised per diem equals more than just a few bucks a day. As well, I knew about the pay, the per diems, and the intentions to keep the base out west prior to applying for employment with WJ. One of my dearest friends has been an FA for 4 years and was always candid about her job with me. It was her stories and enthusiasm that prompted me to quit the "well paying, ill-satisfying" job I held previously. The industry is changing, the demands are changing, the people are changing and in order to keep up, the companies will have to change and give a little, too. As I said before, if my biggest worries are the two mentioned above, then I know how well I've got it. Maybe you as a bag chucker should shadow an FA for a day? I spent a day on the ramp with you kids this summer. It may give you a taste of what goes on up in the skies. If not, think about how you would feel being in uniform and at work (maybe even just hanging out and not hucking bags as compared to deadheading), but not getting paid for it for more than 20 hours a month. Read the original reply again like I said with a more open mind and a less defensive attitude and get back to me, I'll be interested to see if you change your approach. We're all on the same team, my friend. wjfa. Telling you 'that's the job' isn't my idea of a solution and we both know that any manager or team leader at WestJet never say that. When do they review your salaries and benefits for your department? Have you sent in a letter or spoken to someone? I've always found the door open when I go in with a concern or complaint to my supervisor. Sometimes, issues like this can go on at any company but nothing gets done until they have a few things in writing. One example was everyone hated the hotel in YEG, (because of the 2 am, 4am, 6am, 0610, 0611... trains going by) yet it took six months for the first report to go in. A few more reports finally came in by pulling teeth, and then we eventually got a new hotel. Nobody likes dealing with work on a day off, and it's hard to fill in paperwork at the end of a 4 day pairing, yet getting things across to the right people can be tough anywhere. Regardless, I'd say make yourself heard to your PACT person, Supervisor, or Team leader, before it takes anymore of a toll on your group than it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skirt Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Remember, this is tax-free cash in your hand, and if you don't spend it all on the road, you can buy nice Christmas presents at the end of the year. What, you don't have to spend it all on the road? This is news to me. No wonder I'm developing liver spots!!! John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjafa Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Telling you 'that's the job' isn't my idea of a solution and we both know that any manager or team leader at WestJet never say that. I wish that were true. I'm usually pretty content with my management, that being the Inflight TeamLeaders. When I brought them my issue with my NOV/DEC sched, it was resolved in the best way possible and I was extremely pleased with the result and I've been telling other FA"s upset about their scheds to do the same. It was a very positive experience for me, mostly because all I really wanted to hear from someone was "ouch! you really have been getting the short straw!" and I got just that, with the the best possible solution available (IMO). On the other hand, when I brought up my concerns about the unpaid/compensated deadheading and the low per diem (which hits hard in a city like YYZ where a hamburger at the Sheraton is $15 and the only other option is the Swiss Chalet in T3) I was in fact told that it was "part of the job" as it is currently and that I knew what I was accepting when I took my position. When given the recent paper survery about unpaid deadheading and block time, I filled it out honestly asking to be be compensated in *some way* for deadhead legs. The results came out in a memo about a week ago and as it turns out, only 37% of those who filled out their forms felt the same way. So since we are a diplomatic bunch, and I can respect that, I suppose the issue will go away for a while. Speaking with a member of PACT recently, we had a good conversation, but I must admit I was a little weary of bringing up the topic again. I did however make a promise to myself to attend the next PACT forum and the be an active part of it. Thanks for the feedback, Spinnaker, I do appreciate it and think you have a very valid point. If only more people within Inflight were more vocal to their management about what's bothering them... I try to never complain about something without first trying to find resolution for it, especially out on the road and at work, since we all know that type of negativity is contagious (what Don Bell calls "stinkin' thinkin'). I do think it has taken a toll on the FA group, particularly with the addition of the new ADopt system, as well the new shift trade/give-away procedures that are going into effect sometime in January. I heard someone once say they were "embracing change" in the crew room with a sardonic tone to their voice, and I suppose I will embrace it with them. The changes are minor and don't seem to affect my happiness or my ability to perform my duties and make guests smile, so I suppose that is where I will leave it until that changes happily in the skies, happily wearing the blue poly , wjafa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnaker Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 I wish that were true. I'm usually pretty content with my management, that being the Inflight TeamLeaders. When I brought them my issue with my NOV/DEC sched, it was resolved in the best way possible and I was extremely pleased with the result and I've been telling other FA"s upset about their scheds to do the same. It was a very positive experience for me, mostly because all I really wanted to hear from someone was "ouch! you really have been getting the short straw!" and I got just that, with the the best possible solution available (IMO). On the other hand, when I brought up my concerns about the unpaid/compensated deadheading and the low per diem (which hits hard in a city like YYZ where a hamburger at the Sheraton is $15 and the only other option is the Swiss Chalet in T3) I was in fact told that it was "part of the job" as it is currently and that I knew what I was accepting when I took my position. When given the recent paper survery about unpaid deadheading and block time, I filled it out honestly asking to be be compensated in *some way* for deadhead legs. The results came out in a memo about a week ago and as it turns out, only 37% of those who filled out their forms felt the same way. So since we are a diplomatic bunch, and I can respect that, I suppose the issue will go away for a while. Speaking with a member of PACT recently, we had a good conversation, but I must admit I was a little weary of bringing up the topic again. I did however make a promise to myself to attend the next PACT forum and the be an active part of it. Thanks for the feedback, Spinnaker, I do appreciate it and think you have a very valid point. If only more people within Inflight were more vocal to their management about what's bothering them... I try to never complain about something without first trying to find resolution for it, especially out on the road and at work, since we all know that type of negativity is contagious (what Don Bell calls "stinkin' thinkin'). I do think it has taken a toll on the FA group, particularly with the addition of the new ADopt system, as well the new shift trade/give-away procedures that are going into effect sometime in January. I heard someone once say they were "embracing change" in the crew room with a sardonic tone to their voice, and I suppose I will embrace it with them. The changes are minor and don't seem to affect my happiness or my ability to perform my duties and make guests smile, so I suppose that is where I will leave it until that changes happily in the skies, happily wearing the blue poly , wjafa Well like you said, it's diplomatic. I guess given time, these opinions will change. As for your argument on per diems, I would like more too somedays but I don't feel strongly enough to bother doing anything. In respect, I don't look at my salary as the big picture, I cost average everything for the end result. For now I average perdiems, spending $40 in YYZ on a couple of beers and wings, while subway for 8 bucks does the job in YWG. At some point sooner than later, you'll start to find enough FA's will change there mind start swaying to you're side, and the 37% will go up. If you find other unhappy FA's get them to say something, it's not complaining. As for Deadheading, it wasn't until the last contract at Air Canada that the pilots starting getting paid to deadhead. I was never paid to deadhead for Jazz or any company for that matter. Granted, as we grow, something has to give, either another base, being supportive of commuting, 5 and 6 day pairings... or compensated deadheading will come if we start feeling like our time is thought of as 'free'. I think you'll see 5 and 6 day pairings, but that's just my opinion. Teamleaders are not perfect people, there also not the only people. If you don't like the way that situation was handled, go to the next in the chain of command is my advice. If you don't feel your person in PACT will receive this input well from you... too bad for them, they have the wrong job if they don't like hearing it. Their job is to work for you, and bring opinions forward. Any representative should note your input, and weigh this with everyone elses input, making a diplomatic picutre so the entire company benefits. For now, I'm going back in the bunker with my opinions, out of the public eye. Feel free to PM me or go to the private WestJet forum... where you can get more advice on this matter. http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/index.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 "As for Deadheading, it wasn't until the last contract at Air Canada that the pilots starting getting paid to deadhead" That is because you negotiated for something else instead. To use that example here is ludicrous. wjafa---I would have to agree with you on one point in particular. The per diems should cover the cost of your food expense while away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchman Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 As for Deadheading, it wasn't until the last contract at Air Canada that the pilots starting getting paid to deadhead. This is incorrect, Spinnaker. Partial pay and flight time credits have applied to deadheading at AC for both pilots and flight attendants for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 This is incorrect, Spinnaker. Partial pay and flight time credits have applied to deadheading at AC for both pilots and flight attendants for decades. Same goes for Jazz, but duty time only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnaker Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Same goes for Jazz, but duty time only. Same could be said for WestJet pilots, 80 hours flight time or 18 days.. the rest is overtime. I'm not sure how the FA's are covered. I'm not disagreeing with her points either, just offering some solutions. inchman, Sorry, I thought it was in a recent contract ACPA came out with a paid deadhead (during the Outhouse mediation), maybe it was full credit or paid training... I shouldn't have used the example as I'm not really sure now. Trader, I understand what you're saying but my perdiems are around $400-$575 per month. Lower than I've had in the past, but it still covers my expenses. I consider expenses to be meals, drinks, long distance and tips. Some FA's consider their per diem 'income' which defeats the purpose. Typically WestJet handles expenses for employees in different ways. Cancun, our hotel had a menu for us, plus perdiems. On Charter flights, we also have very nice crew meals put on board. In domestic Canada, I can do fine on $400-$575... (for now ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjafa Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Same could be said for WestJet pilots, 80 hours flight time or 18 days.. the rest is overtime. I'm not sure how the FA's are covered. This depends on if you are FT or PT. FT: salaried at 80 flight hours/month. In a 30 day month, a maximum of 18 days. In a 31 day month, a maximum of 19 days. Overtime is not accrued when you pick up shifts over 80 hours as it is seen as "volunteering." You get paid regular hourly at whatever rate you are at. If you highlight yourself with crew scheduling or pick up a blocked reserve shift from a part-time flight attendant, if that puts a FT FA over 80 hours, then it is paid as overtime because it is seen as necissity and company approved overtime. Per Diem is paid from door closed in YYC on Day one to door open in YYC on the last day of a pairing (as I know it). Cancun, our hotel had a menu for us, plus perdiems. This must be for pilots only. FA's do not receive a per diem when meals are provided at a layover hotel such at Cancun (and no more of those this year - bummer!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AIP Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 inchman, Sorry, I thought it was in a recent contract ACPA came out with a paid deadhead (during the Outhouse mediation), maybe it was full credit or paid training... I shouldn't have used the example as I'm not really sure now. I believe you are thinking about how we had FULL pay and credit for deadhead. You would have been amazed how the pairings became leaner and meaner with that little one thrown in the mix. 1/2 pay and credit for DH is bad enough, but to have no pay no credit is ludicrous. It says that your time is not worth very much in my humble estimation. Get that changed and watch you pairings magically improve literally overnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 To underscore wjafa's comments on the per diums: they can be a significant part of an f/a's income. Not too long ago, my wife was recieving around $600/mo per diums at Wardair (ah, now THAT was an airline:). Remember, this is tax-free cash in your hand, and if you don't spend it all on the road, you can buy nice Christmas presents at the end of the year. Wow. You keep up that kind of talk and you-all are going to get -seriously- audited! Per diem is NOTincome. It's re-embursement for expenses. That's IT! GTFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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