Jetsgo being propped up by AC

[Guest curtiss jenny]

Just thought I'd throw that out there as rumour has it that there is some behind the scenes co-operation between Jetsgo and Air Canada.

For example;

1)Air Canada all of a sudden as part of their restructuring process, conceding that they need to cut back on domestic capacity.

2)The co-operation in regards to the lawsuit material.

3)Jetsgo appearing more focused on competing with Westjet than AC.

4)Given ACs political influence, Transport Canada's hands off Jetsgo policy.

Any mature comments?

[Seeker]

Just thought I'd throw that out there as rumour has it that there is some behind the scenes co-operation between Jetsgo and Air Canada.

For example;

1)Air Canada all of a sudden as part of their restructuring process, conceding that they need to cut back on domestic capacity.

2)The co-operation in regards to the lawsuit material.

3)Jetsgo appearing more focused on competing with Westjet than AC.

4)Given ACs political influence, Transport Canada's hands off Jetsgo policy.

Any mature comments?

1) The need to cut back was obvious - even Beddoe said so ( not that he's following his own advice).

2) Why not - has noeffect on AC either way.

3) Westjet would be considered the competition not AC.

4) Ya, right. AC has a lot of pull in YOW!! Besides, what "hands off" policy is that?

[dagger]

Just thought I'd throw that out there as rumour has it that there is some behind the scenes co-operation between Jetsgo and Air Canada.

For example;

1)Air Canada all of a sudden as part of their restructuring process, conceding that they need to cut back on domestic capacity.

2)The co-operation in regards to the lawsuit material.

3)Jetsgo appearing more focused on competing with Westjet than AC.

4)Given ACs political influence, Transport Canada's hands off Jetsgo policy.

Any mature comments?

You need a mature premise to get a mature response, but I'll try to present this list:

1) Air Canada's domestic restructuring was universally welcomed - by WS in particular. The fact everyone knew there would be some drawdown in capacity gave every player, WS included, the chance to go out and look for additional opportunities. However, AC's drawdown has been less a matter of routes or frequency than it has been about gauge. And AC's domestic RPMs have actually grown, when one would have expected a reduction in ASMs to cause a falloff in RPMs.

2) The lawsuit, ahhh the lawsuit. Again, a very public set of circumstances in which Leblanc saw an opening to jump in with Army boots on. Air Canada presumably felt this was fine, make WS look even worse, but it hardly required some sort of conspiratorial action.

3) Well, maybe if you are looking from West to East, it may appear as if SG is "more focussed" on WS at this very moment, but it doesn't pass muster. FACT, SG established itself in the East, on routes like YYZ-YUL and YYZ-YOW which are AC strongholds, before ever venturing onto the transcon (also an AC strongsuit). SG went into NYC (an AC stronghold) before any other carrier, and started YYZ-LAX before any other carrier. By any objective measure, SG has been more competition for AC than for WS, at least until now. And who asked WS to move to YYZ anyway where it takes on SG head on?

4) AC's political influence

What political influence? You mean the political influence that causes AC to carry a huge bilingual burden? the polticial influence that causes politicians to sh!t on AC if there is a vote to be had in doing so? In the movie Fiddler on the Roof, there is a scene that evokes AC's view of federal politicians:

Worshipper: "Rabbi, is there a blessing for the Tsar?"

The Rabbi muses for a minute and then begins to chant...

"God bless and keep the Tsar..........................far away from us!"

Listen Buddy, stop looking for scapegoats. WS' problems are of WS' own making. You wanted to move to YYZ and its high costs just to take out Jetsgo (IMHO), you didn't get the job done. You want to flood the market with capacity and then get annoyed when competitors don't roll over and die so you can fill that unneeded and potential unwise capacity? Tough bananas.

Your management spies on your competitors

Your management repeatedly fumbles yield management

Your management makes unwise hub decisions

Your management orders the wrong number of aircraft and the wrong size of aircraft

Your management makes up lame advertising campaigns

Westjet is a great airline with a great line staff. It's going to be around for many many years, but you may find the next few quarters less successful than you are used to, and curiously, that might be good for Westjet's longer term performance. It might help you (and the board) point fingers at those responsible for a year and a half of bad decisions.

[Guest curtiss jenny]

1)  The need to cut back was obvious - even Beddoe said so ( not that he's following his own advice).

2)  Why not - has noeffect on AC either way.

3)  Westjet would be considered the competition not AC.

4)  Ya, right.  AC has a lot of pull in YOW!!  Besides, what "hands off" policy is that?

1) Yes but not that long ago Ac had this thing called zip, and Milton himself not more than two years ago maintained that the lcc's were eating his lunch. I dont believe that there was any talk of contraction.

"not that he's following his own advice". You are comparing apples to oranges WJ expanding from 30 to 60 airplanes, compared to ACs 300 down to 280?

2)It just adds to the smearing factor

3)AC is the real competition. Its the LCCs that should co-operate if they are

serious about a future in Canadian aviation.

4)Dont underestimate AC's political ties, the old boys network runs very deep, especially with the Liberals.

The hands off policy was mentioned in another thread.

[Cargo Agent]

1) Yes but not that long ago Ac had this thing called zip, and Milton himself not more than two years ago maintained that the lcc's were eating his lunch. I dont believe that there was any talk of contraction.

"not that he's following his own advice". You are comparing apples to oranges WJ expanding from 30 to 60 airplanes, compared to ACs 300 down to 280?

2)It just adds to the smearing factor

3)AC is the real competition. Its the LCCs that should co-operate if they are

serious about a future in Canadian aviation.

4)Dont underestimate AC's political ties, the old boys network runs very deep, especially with the Liberals.

The hands off policy was mentioned in another thread.

A couple of quotes came to mind reading this tripe.

1) From the great Monty Python-"Your a looney"

2)From some rock star whose name escapes me -"Paranoia will destroy ya"

[Guest curtiss jenny]

Thanks for your colorful insight Dagger. Im not looking for a scapegoat Im just bringing up street rumors as I heard them.

When there is smoke there is fire so to speak and wj needs all the help it can get on this forum at least with your and others derogatory headlines.

Thanks for the mature post Cargo Agent..back at ya [edited by admin. Please refer to our posting guidelines]

[better4me]

Dagger,

Does Clive's mom wear army boots?????

[Dork]

Air Canada couldn't lead a group of ants to a picnic let alone organise that one. It doesn't entail screwing it's own employees.... so they would have no interest in such an adventure.

Nice try, thanks for the credit.

Back to the Bunker..time to get some more time in.... AMFCFA

[ChicoChico]

Im not looking for a scapegoat Im just bringing up street rumors as I heard them.

CJ

...well I just heard something "on the street" so I thought I would throw it out as a rumour that WJ is in serious trouble - my rumour (which I just made up BTW) has as much credibility as yours.

What you read on this forum and $1.20 get you a medium double double at Tim's!

FWIW

CC

[FA@AC]

If I may, Dagger, I wanna pick your brain yet again.

What do you make of Jetsgo? I guess you won't have seen their balance sheet, but do you find it conceivable that it's profitable given the next-to-nothing prices at which it seems to dump a lot of its capacity? What do you think Leblanc is thinking? Westjet seems to have enough cash. Does Leblanc perhaps think that he can outlast WJ if they both fly people around below cost? If he does think so, is he off his rocker or do you have any info that would suggest that he may be right? If Leblanc or his backers don't have very deep pockets indeed, what do you suppose they're doing here? Expanding perhaps on the assumption that WJ will just cede market after market to Jetsgo?

[dagger]

If I may, Dagger, I wanna pick your brain yet again.

What do you make of Jetsgo?  I guess you won't have seen their balance sheet, but do you find it conceivable that it's profitable given the next-to-nothing prices at which it seems to dump a lot of its capacity?  What do you think Leblanc is thinking?  Westjet seems to have enough cash.  Does Leblanc perhaps think that he can outlast WJ if they both fly people around below cost?  If he does think so, is he off his rocker or do you have any info that would suggest that he may be right?  If Leblanc or his backers don't have very deep pockets indeed, what do you suppose they're doing here?  Expanding perhaps on the assumption that WJ will just cede market after market to Jetsgo?

Not having access to SG's books I can't say, but the strategy is probably to stretch things out until the summer schedule and take in a lot of cash. Say what you want about SG, it has a very clear sense of its own identity. It knows exactly what it wants to be, and as a consequence, so does the public. It also has a clear understanding of its strengths, and has worked to reinforce those. If crude continues to slide, certainly to the mid-30-dollar range, you would have to like its chances for 2005-06. I said so a while ago and got flamed by WJetters: Buy out SG. Cheaper than running him out of business. A lot cheaper. Park/sell the MD-80s, keep the F-100s until you can replace them with Embraers. But if you wait to run Leblanc out of business, be careful. His fleet costs and wage costs have to be small, and fuel is his biggest problem. If he can cope with that, he could be around for years. As for his motives, who knows. But I would find out how much he wants for the operation. That may be his goal. He's done it before.

[manwest]

Not having access to SG's books I can't say, but the strategy is probably to stretch things out until the summer schedule and take in a lot of cash. Say what you want about SG, it has a very clear sense of its own identity. It knows exactly what it wants to be, and as a consequence, so does the public. It also has a clear understanding of its strengths, and has worked to reinforce those. If crude continues to slide, certainly to the mid-30-dollar range, you would have to like its chances for 2005-06. I said so a while ago and got flamed by WJetters: Buy out SG. Cheaper than running him out of business. A lot cheaper. Park/sell the MD-80s, keep the F-100s until you can replace them with Embraers. But if you wait to run Leblanc out of business, be careful. His fleet costs and wage costs have to be small, and fuel is his biggest problem. If he can cope with that, he could be around for years. As for his motives, who knows. But I would find out how much he wants for the operation. That may be his goal. He's done it before.

This advice would be the worst thing WestJet could take.

This would be a receipe for disaster for WestJet.

This advice is something a legacy carrier would take, which if taken, would ensure its demise.

[Guest curtiss jenny]

Giving Jetsgo the thumbs up Dagger....I knew you where in cahoots!

If you are suggesting that Westjet buys Jetsgo you have a short memory.

Thats one of the things that killed C3. ML walked away with a lot of cash.

If WJ buys another airline or puts in business class, then I WILL be worried.

[AIP]

Giving Jetsgo the thumbs up Dagger....I knew you where in cahoots!

If you are suggesting that Westjet buys Jetsgo you have a short memory.

Thats one of the things that killed C3. ML walked away with a lot of cash.

If WJ buys another airline or puts in business class, then I WILL be worried.

The way you started this brialliant thread, leads me to believe you are past worry and about to hit full fledged panic.

[Guest curtiss jenny]

Hit a nerve did I AIP?

I never panic I just move on when the company shuts down, is that what you'd like to hear? Well im am getting used to it, and thats what ticks me off about this business and the attitude of many people here toward non AC types. Smug people like you AIP who are on their high horse issuing your decrees and vison of the way it should be, and the few times that you call one right, you offer hollow condolences to people and their families who got shafted. Then pat yourself on the back for a job well done.

#@@%32@3!# self edited

[dagger]

This advice would be the worst thing WestJet could take.

This would be a receipe for disaster for WestJet.

This advice is something a legacy carrier would take, which if taken, would ensure its demise.

Well, Canada3000 did it, too. However, let's see how things go this winter. My strategy will look cheap by April.

I'm usually proven right.

Like the Fram commercial, You can pay me now or you pay me later.

Remember, if fuel goes to $35 and the C$ stays above 80 cents, Michel will haunt you for the rest of your days.

[manwest]

Well, Canada3000 did it, too. However, let's see how things go this winter. My strategy will look cheap by April.

I'm usually proven right.

Like the Fram commercial, You can pay me now or you pay me later.

Remember, if fuel goes to $35 and the C$ stays above 80 cents, Michel will haunt you for the rest of your days.

If you think this is such a good deal, why don't you suggest it to your *contacts* at AC.??????? Think of the money they would save not buying or leasing the new small jets. Think of the control they will have on the Eastern triangle. Or have they learned their lesson when they finally had control of Canadian ???????

[dagger]

If you think this is such a good deal, why don't you suggest it to your *contacts* at AC.??????? Think of the money they would save not buying or leasing the new small jets. Think of the control they will have on the Eastern triangle. Or have they learned their lesson when they finally had control of Canadian ???????

This may be rocket science for you, but if AC bought out a competitor, the deal would likely be invalidated by the Competition Bureau, would cause a revolt among AC's unionized pilots, would introduce a fleet type that would be excessively costly to operate with unionized costs and which doesn't have the range of the Embraers or CRJ-705s. Moreover, the elimination of SG would help WS more than it would help AC because WS would have some routes to put some of those planes it has ordered, and it would enable WS to raise a range of lower fares, but would not help AC raise its higher fares. AC and SG have complete and total overlap, but WS and SG do have some unique different things, and adding SG staff would make WS more bilingual, but would not help AC.

There, have I given you enough reasons why AC cannot buy SG?

Or should I convene a seance so you can ask Werner von Braun in the afterlife why it won't work?

[manwest]

This may be rocket science for you, but if AC bought out a competitor, the deal would likely be invalidated by the Competition Bureau, would cause a revolt among AC's unionized pilots, would introduce a fleet type that would be excessively costly to operate with unionized costs and which doesn't have the range of the Embraers or CRJ-705s. Moreover, the elimination of SG would help WS more than it would help AC because WS would have some routes to put some of those planes it has ordered, and it would enable WS to raise a range of lower fares, but would not help AC raise its higher fares. AC and SG have complete and total overlap, but WS and SG do have some unique different things, and adding SG staff would make WS more bilingual, but would not help AC.

There, have I given you enough reasons why AC cannot buy SG?

Or should I convene a seance so you can ask Werner von Braun in the afterlife why it won't work?

You just can't answer a post without a smart alex comment. Do you talk to your co-workers or consulting clients that way if they don't agree with you????? Were you always like this throughout you life??? I don't mind you disagreeing with me but you always seems like you have to slam the person.

Next you may say I am overly sensitive, no not at all , I don't appreciate your tone of your replys. Like I have said before don't reply to my posts unless you want to talk like an adult, and not some junior high school bully. You would think you would have learned this from others at flyertalk, they don't appreciate it there either.

[Guest curtiss jenny]

Wouldnt work for WJ for pretty much the same reasons. Nice fade though.

Dagger when do you find time to eat and sleep?

Are you the propaganda minister?

[deicer]

Your management spies on your competitors

Your management repeatedly fumbles yield management

Your management makes unwise hub decisions

Your management orders the wrong number of aircraft and the wrong size of aircraft

Your management makes up lame advertising campaigns

.

Keep Clive Forever!!!!!!!!!!!

[wizard]

MR Dagger wins again as always great insight Dagger.

[chockalicious]

You just can't answer a post without a smart alex comment. Do you talk to your co-workers or consulting clients that way if they don't agree with you????? Were you always like this throughout you life??? I don't mind you disagreeing with me but you always seems like you have to slam the person.

I would not sweat Dagger too much. He has a reputation to maintain to appear insightful and full of wisdom, especially to his peanut gallery and the board. By having a condescending tone he can appear more knowledgeable than he actually is.

His half truths, heard from a high sources, talked to a friend in a high place and etc will be taken as gospel by the flunkies who will grasp on to anything that is negative as long as it is not negative about AC. I have no problem with his conjecture, it is an internet message board and I take it for what it is worth.

Dagger has a case of on line ILS. For those who don't know ILS is when you see guys walk around flexed with their shoulders out trying to prove they have lateral muscles, hence the term Imaginary Lat Syndrome.

As the chief apologist for AC on this board he has a reputation to mantain.

[dagger]

I would not sweat Dagger too much. He has a reputation to maintain to appear insightful and full of wisdom, especially to his peanut gallery and the board. By having a condescending tone he can appear more knowledgeable than he actually is.

His half truths, heard from a high sources, talked to a friend in a high place and etc will be taken as gospel by the flunkies who will grasp on to anything that is negative as long as it is not negative about AC. I have no problem with his conjecture, it is an internet message board and I take it for what it is worth.

Dagger has a case of on line ILS. For those who don't know ILS is when you see guys walk around flexed with their shoulders out trying to prove they have lateral muscles, hence the term Imaginary Lat Syndrome.

As the chief apologist for AC on this board he has a reputation to mantain.

Coming from you, that can only cement my reputation and credibility amongst knowledgable and open-minded posters.

[dagger]

Scanning SG's expansion announcement, I was reminded of just how aggressive Leblanc can be. He'll be up to 30 jets by next summer, and I bet Clive and Hill never thought it would come to this. SG has gone out and leveraged cheap aircraft and labor and aggressive marketing. It's usually the low-fare leader, and it has quite a national network now. It has a frequent flyer program that allows it to further lower its fares - by arbitraging FF miles over unfilled seats it effectively lowers a frequent travellers' cost of travel.

SG's soon to be 30 jets, combined with the vast bulk of Westjet's fleet (that portion not doing transborder) adds up to a far more capacity than CP offered during the 1990s.

So here is WJ, with a fairly uniform fleet, flying routes that are increasingly fragmented or marginalized by a low-end and a high-end competitor. As each carrier gets a smaller piece of the total pie on that route, it makes sense to get in smaller aircraft, which also allows one to add frequency. The F-100 is a better fit for a lot of situations than the MD-80s, although AC with 50, 75, 93 and 119 seats will have even more flexibility.

It's going to be tough for WJ. Not to survive. I take WJ's survival as a given. But the days of wine and roses and fat profits and endless growth are coming to an end, and Clive either doesn't recognize it, or is in denial.