Picher Award

[Guest neo]

I believe that ACPA really started us down this slippery slope when they negotiated a scope clause that has a tremendous effect on my career. The day ACPA negotiated that contract provision which would ‘preserve and enhance the Air Canada pilots career’ it had to come at a cost.

John,

If you believe the above, then you should follow the path to it's source: ACPA put in a scope clause because the connector pilots were taking so much of their flying. Had we (I say we because I was a connector pilot at the time) not been ravaging their historical flying, the need for scope would've been much reduced.

So who was it that started us down the slippery slope?

It's chicken and egg arguing any of that: we (the pilots) didn't force the employer to switch flying from the mainline to the regionals. But it behooved pilots in both camps of the day to recognize what was coming and act together to protect the interests of everyone. We didn't do that, and reaped the consequences of our intransigence.

Scope has exacted a huge cost on both the mainline and regional pilots. It was the perfect management strategy because they created value out of nothing. By simply threatening to erode the mainline pilot jobs, they forced the mainline pilots to pay for scope in every contract since. And pay they have.

The time to have gotten it right was at the very beginning. There was even time to correct that failure for a while afterwards. But now? After the mainline pilots have taken a big beating on wages, had their scope clause broken, 'lost' aircraft to the regional, seen a lot of other mainline flying evaporate, and, most significantly, seen the impact of a seniority arbitration that's gone awry? I don't think so.

Just my opinion, though.

neo

[Jumpy]

I believe that ACPA really started us down this slippery slope when they negotiated a scope clause that has a tremendous effect on my career. The day ACPA negotiated that contract provision which would ‘preserve and enhance the Air Canada pilots career’ it had to come at a cost

Having been at Jazz I have personally viewed the misguided ideas of a great many of the ALPA pilot group. While concentrating on the "glass ceiling" they fail to realize that the floor is shrinking beneath them. You will never be able to dictate what ACPA does but you can do something to protect the flying you already have. When the oppertunity came to protect jobs from TIER III ALPA bargained for more money and better working conditions while flying was being lost at an ever increasing rate. You could have done something to get that flying back and protect the jobs of the junior members but as long as the top 500 hold onto the ghost of Picher you will continue sacrfice the careers of so many below you. As long as you remain seperated the company will continue to use this in it's bargaining practices. It's time to grow up and look at the future....

[Buzz2]

your points are valid Neo, but you and the supposed other moderates(see the fella aboves post), aren't doing anything to change it. If us pilots see a problem, surely we colletively can fix it . It isn't going to get any better working for ACE with 2 and maybe more pilot groups fighting for work, because sure as sugar the day that will come again where ACE is looking for protection , the model is broken part 2. The only people that lose are the pilots, period.

[Mitch Cronin]

... I hear banjo music in my head whenever this discussion gets heated up...

Seems the one thing most of you agree on is that some corrections should have been made years ago for the benefit of all of you... I wonder how many recognize that ten years from now, ten years will have passed, regardless. If you hash out some kind of solution in the mean time, things will be that much better in ten years.. if not... same angst, ten years later.... and so on.

A professional association, not related to any one company, with an associated "number" affixed to your initial CPL seems the best fix... especially when history has shown how one company can become another, or get swallowed, or destroyed... Even if there were no change to current status, or fix for those of you already embroiled in the mess, at least that sort of thing could protect those not yet competing with you all.

I wish AME's would do that too!

[.70 mach]

Buzz2

"I can assure you there is a solution, but it takes two to tango, and if your group isn't willing,"

We at Jazz have to ask ourselves why the stalemate occurred, what led to one group walk away in disgust over what had been months of fruitful discussions. Was it Jazz demanding the EMB 190's coming to us after both groups agree to the BOTL/BOTL . Was it another group wanting them be flown by mainline pilots at Jazz. Was it the representation ACPA vs ALPA ,was one union wanting control over the total process. Did one group try to expand the scope of the Jet Arbitration behind the back of the other group? I only bring up these concerns as I have asked several members from both sides with no similarity in their answers only to come to the conclusion that we as members don't know what exactly happened other than an agreement did not satisfy the concerns of the other group.

Bottom line : both groups should ask it's members, yes it's members what is reasonable to conclude the discussions. Basically what would both sides want. Then find out if their is enough common ground to make it worth the attempt. Do this in an open forum between both groups rather than huddled away from the members without letting these two groups members have a say.

I only bring this up as the "whipsaw" will continue only until we as members on both sides let it. For those pilots that think Picher is still alive, heck I still think Elvis is alive too but common sense lets me think a solution between both groups is better for both of us rather than continue down the road we are on. I only have to look down south and see the EMB 170 being operated by US Airways Express and United Express how soon will these aircraft be in the radar screen at Jazz.

lets fix it !

[Seeker]

You figure that ACPA is responsible for not talking, yet ACPA keeps coming back to attempt various solutions. None of them have been acceptable.

Can you back this up at all? My understanding is that the ACPA MEC won't even return phone calls let alone initiate any attempt at resolution.

[Seeker]

ALPA has proven time and again that they are the ones willing to undercut and erode,

The regional pilots always got paid less for more work than the mainline pilots. No undercutting there. In fact, the only undercutting I'm aware of was the AC pilots' lowball offer to the company to get the RJs in the first place.

[Guest floatrrr]

Go ahead and ask anyone who was involved in recent Global Solution talks exactly what happened and you will hear nothing but the wind blowing through the trees. Silence. Bottom line... BOTH sides need to send a group of folks into those talks who are non biased as to the outcome, and agree to adhere to the outcome. Oh wait a second , that already happened with an arbitrator named Picher didn't it?

[Dork]

There is nothing that could be posted on this thread that was not already posted at least five to ten time already. So it is probably a good idea for you to try to overlook this reply and let it go. . . .,

Right on...pretty much says it all. Time to get on with life or what is left of it.

Back to the Bunker...