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Picher Award


Guest UR12

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Is the Picher award dead at this point or is there still litigation pending with respect to implementation (or lack of) ?

In answer to your question, one can do no better than to invoke the memory of the Monty Python "Dead Parrot" skit. However, for those who don't know it, or would appreciate an humble, non-visual response to the question: Yes, Picher is dead. Deceased, even. Drawn and quartered. Gonzo. Hors de combat. Over. Ended. Done away with. Exhausted. Extinct. Lifeless. Defunct. Six feet under. Pushing up daisies. In the Promised Land. A stinking, festering corpse. Dearly departed. Passed away. Euthanized. Killed. Destroyed. Extirpated. Surgically removed and disposed of. Flushed. Screwed. Finished.

"But," you might ask, "is it really?"

Nah! There's always hope. smile.gif

neo

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Just a sec'! Let me check the definition of that in the Webster's New Oxford Lexicological Reference, Volume One...

Let's see... T... TA... TANG... Ah yes, here it is: "Tango Uniform, adj, informal. Deceased. Drawn and quartered. Gonzo. Hors de combat. Over. Ended. Done away with. Exhausted. Extinct. Lifeless. Defunct. Six feet under. Pushing up daisies. In the Promised Land. A stinking, festering corpse. Dearly departed. Passed away. Euthanized. Killed. Destroyed. Extirpated. Surgically removed and disposed of. Flushed. Screwed. Finished."

My hat's off to you, J.O. Looks like the Webster New Oxford is on your side! smile.gif

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... growing grubs, kaput, worm food, utterly devoid of anything that ever resembled that which could be confused with life, ex'ed, a non thing, toast, the black remains that fall from your toaster.... or the very stiff: "No longer with us"...

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Aren't you just tickled pink that you asked the question UR12 ?

ccairspace

Well, I expected the initial reactions to be as such however I'm not convinced, based on factual information that it's dead. Perhaps more people will shed light on this over more time.

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Many would wish it so, UR12, but as Virginia was assured so many years ago, Picher is not dead.

You see, Picher will live on; it does live on in the hundreds of lives that may be affected if and when a Judge is asked to determine; "Where might one have been on {Santa's} list if there had been honour instead of greed ---if a man's word was anything more than a sprite of wind; a breath so quickly gone."

If (yes, I said "if") it is someday determined that Picher should not have been so blithely ignored, the award will be a hall mark by which the toll upon many will be reduced to dollars.

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Well, I expected the initial reactions to be as such however I'm not convinced, based on factual information that it's dead. Perhaps more people will shed light on this over more time.

Perhaps it`s merely "pining for the fiords" laugh.gif

Kid

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"Where might one have been on {Santa's} list if there had been honour instead of greed ---if a man's word was anything more than a sprite of wind; a breath so quickly gone."

That's...(sniff) that's... beautiful. Sheer poetry.

But the thing is, Virginia, you're a big girl now. You wear a bra and pantyhose, you don't just dress your Barbie in them. There's no point in believing Grandpa went to sleep for a long time: he's dead, deceased, an ex-grandpa. And it doesn't matter that he was a great guy, full of honour and wisdom; he's dead anyway. That's one of the awkward truths of life: many unfair things happen which are never redressed. Doesn't mean you have to forget about what happened, although sometimes that's wise too, but fooling yourself? Bad principle on which to build a future.

And no, you can't have the car tonight.

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Guest directlaw

"That's one of the awkward truths of life: many unfair things happen which are never redressed. Doesn't mean you have to forget about what happened, although sometimes that's wise too, but fooling yourself? Bad principle on which to build a future."

Very true Mr. Neo. Might have to apply that myself in the very near future. smile.gif

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After the CDN list, Mitchnick, Keller, the GS concurrent with cooking a deal that resulted in having the Teplitsky fiasco rammed up our ### by that backroom deal with ALPA and Rovinescu, and given the CIRBs highly political mood to be involved in the ACPA Contract on a continuing basis, plus constant, continuous demands from AC management upon the ACPA Contract, any other deal that might even possibly jeopardize ACPA members will not happen. Any talks with ALPA can do nothing to improve the situation for ACPA members. The Rovinescu deal made it absolutely clear that there can be no talks and no solution. You broke the scope. You did severe damage to the ACPA Contract. Keep it. Enjoy. Teplitsky is not finished yet, he has made that abundantly clear, and continues with threats to mess, and manipulate with the ACPA Contract post CCAA.

It is not about greed on ACPA's part. It is about self preservation.

If there is greed involved it is on ALPA's and members' part, by coveting something they don't possess at this point. They know, we know that the marker of Picher is probably not the goal, and that once we start down that road, anything other than DOH will not suffice. We will be back into a protracted and expensive battle, again.

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Don't have time for a long rebuttal but I'll just point out the obvious. The greatest good for the largest number of ACPA pilots would have come from the acceptance of Picher. Ironically this would have also given the greatest good to the largest number of regional pilots. Your comments about the continuing threat Teplitsky poses is the PROOF of this and yet, for some reason, you still can't see it.

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Water under the bridge. Picher is dead. Will not happen.

I'll go the coulda, shoulda route, too then, and in the end will resolve nothing that we haven't already heard.

I would say that there were many, many opportunities for the connector people to accept options other than Picher that would have made all of the connector pilots, of that time, at least 320 captains, and probably some now 767 captains along the way, too.

The underdog is not always the good guy. The little guy is not always right just because he is the little guy. Nor are they wrong, but the situation has been of constantly blaming the big bad AC guys as the greedy pilots. That is political bull!@#$. That is your negative campaign to win over who exactly??

Picher had errors that were unacceptable, but there were alternatives had they been accepted. Picher did not happen in a vacuum, as much as many would like to spin that it did. ACPA was not formed for one reason, despite probably Picher being the catalyst for that. There were many other issues surrounding Picher involving many members of CALPA at the time, including CDN, and the connectors.

Any deal, including the opportunity for the GS have never been good enough for the connector people. You've always been looking for more, and that is the message that you have delivered loud and clear. Whatever deal is made will never been the end. You will always be looking to bump the deal with one last demand, or one last poke in the eye. From DiStasio, down to GS, it has always been the same thing.

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IKFU, your one of the reasons that the pilot profession in this country is severely messed up, your logic and reasoning are completely out in left field. If you think that Alpa is the problem your sorely mistakened. The company will continue to try an erode your contract as best as they can. I can assure you there is a solution, but it takes two to tango, and if your group isn't willing, then you will continously here the sound of the whipsaw.

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IKFU, your one of the reasons that the pilot profession in this country is severely messed up, your logic and reasoning are completely out in left field. If you think that Alpa is the problem your sorely mistakened. The company will continue to try an erode your contract as best as they can. I can assure you there is a solution, but it takes two to tango, and if your group isn't willing, then you will continously here the sound of the whipsaw.

dry.gif I'm personally responsible for the mess, am I? Is the intent to discredit me, or all AC pilots? Somehow the lack of willingness to talk is again my personal fault, also I suppose. Previously a moderate, personal comments like that have managed to convert me to strongly opposed to further discussions with ALPA. We have wasted far too much energy, time and money.

You figure that ACPA is responsible for not talking, yet ACPA keeps coming back to attempt various solutions. None of them have been acceptable.

ALPA has proven time and again that they are the ones willing to undercut and erode, much more so that visa versa. blink.gif Is ALPA the defender of 'the people', the pilots, union integrity??

That's the end for me. You can slag away with the final word, proving I'm sure that you are more suited to representing the pilots of Canada than I am. Thank god I'm outta here in a couple of years. Once again you were willing to stoop to making it personal. So the 'discussion' ends. You prove it pointless.

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Ikfu,

There is nothing that could be posted on this thread that was not already posted at least five to ten time already. So it is probably a good idea for you to try to overlook this reply and let it go. . . .,

However I must say that it is somewhat amazing that your view of the big picture is so different than mine.

Whereas you see all the sacrifices that ACPA pilots have had to endure, all the threats that affect your great job and all the tactics ACPA has used in the past decade as reasonable, I see it much differently.

I believe that ACPA really started us down this slippery slope when they negotiated a scope clause that has a tremendous effect on my career. The day ACPA negotiated that contract provision which would ‘preserve and enhance the Air Canada pilots career’ it had to come at a cost.

That cost was the career expectations of the regional pilots.

Andwe all know now what happens when you trample on that elusive ‘career expectations’ subject. Just have a look at the mergers the blue team has been dealing with for the past twenty years.

Yes, some of the points you mention about ACPA are valid. But ACPA was by far the more powerful union a few years ago (still is today!) and the responsibility for settlement is often in the hands of the more powerful.

In conflict it seems to be a truth that if the more powerful does not want a solution they will blame the weak.

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You see, Picher will live on; it does live on in the hundreds of lives that may be affected if and when a Judge is asked to determine; "Where might one have been on {Santa's} list if there had been honour instead of greed ---if a man's word was anything more than a sprite of wind; a breath so quickly gone."

Ah, the hypocrisy lives on! It's all very well and good to give away the farm, as long as it's the other guy's property that changes hands, eh fellows?

Picher would have cost the junior AC pilot, DiStasio, 658 numbers- about 16.5 years worth of retirements at mid-90s rates. As the beneficiaries of this transfer of wealth, you are hardly in a position to cry "greed".

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