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The Peter Principle grasped by a kid!


Mitch Cronin

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Mitch....apart from your desire to "grease the wheels" and maintain "buds", tell me.....why?

Because it's wrong... out of whack... nonsensical... akin to paying the nurse's aid more than the doctor... the busboy more than the chef... the receptionist more than the professional... the grip more than the actor... etc...

I have all kinds of respect for FA's... I know something of what they have to put up with, and I understand their value when/if the emergency they've trained for happens... But the job is really not one which requires any skills to speak of. Their actions, on a day to day basis, don't come anywhere close to the same heavy responsibilities and potential for disaster that pilots carry.

Their presence and continued ability to do their job well is certainly important, but if they do a bad job, the results are not nearly as severe as if a pilot (or AME, for that matter!) does a bad job.... It's simply ridiculous that any FA would get paid more than the pilot (or the AME) on the same ship!

Nothing to do with greasing wheels or maintaining buds.... Just the truth as I see it.

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Guest rattler

I had an employee who left a "profession" to join the military. In the relative "blink of an eye" , he was a pilot, jetting around the country.

Really, which organization did he fly with? I thought all Kamikaze squadrons were disbanded, cause I know it was not the CF....why don't you spend some time and find out how long it takes to get CF wings...hint...more than 2 weeks. wink.gif

[Got to wonder, if the wages at the regionals are so bad for a pilot, why a young pilot would not go the military route. Following is from the official Canadian Forces Site:

Once you complete the Basic Officer Training in St-Jean, Québec, your starting salary as a pilot in training will be $ 40,000 per year. Once you’ve completed your pilot training and have earned your wings your salary will range between $43,000 and $60,000 per year. Within a few years of earning your Wings you will be eligible to become a Captain. As a pilot and Captain in the Canadian Forces your salary will range between $64,000 and $90,000

If all the phases were to run back-to-back, the program would take about a year and a half to two years to complete. However, there can be gaps in-between flight training phases during which time pilots-in-training will do On The Job Training (OJT) on Air Force bases around the country.

As a pilot candidate, you must attend the Aircrew Selection Centre (ASC) in Trenton, Ontario, and take specialized aptitude testing, as proficiency in mathematics and physics is required to become a military pilot.

The minimum education required is a Baccalaureate degree from a recognized university. In addition to the Canadian Forces medical standard, you will also be required to meet the medical standard established for the Pilot occupation. You should contact a Military Career Counsellor at 1-800-856-8488 or visit them on the web at: www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca for more information.

Canadian Forces Site.

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Mitch...your attitude is reflected in the remark; "Their jobs do not require any skills to speak of."

You are an AME. You service the mechanical and electrical (to some degree) systems of jet engines. So what? Does that confer upon you some importance? I'm sure you will answer "no". You are no different in kind than the Jaguar specialist down the road. He doesn't earn as much as you. Why?

You speak of the consequences of error. Mitch---if you screw up, the car doesn't simply get pulled to the side of the road. But you're not paid to screw up, are you?

When a pilot screws up, the results are sometimes tragic. There are other times (a very few) when despite best efforts, the plane still goes in. Fact is, however, that most pilots aren't confronted with the "imminent issue" but when they are, most are tragically and regrettfully not able to avoid the event.

That returns us to kip's comment. Most pilots are paid for the tedium of hours of watchful attention.

And, Mitch, while they're up there discussing boats, stocks, residency requirements and occasionaly regretting that the jumpseat is no longer available for a break in the routine of each other's company, the FA's are in the back dealing with a plethora of issues ranging from medical emergencies to drunken assaults, and, rarely, nutcases with a "shoe to burn".

You're right ---they do a bad job and usually, the day goes on. What pilots do on a day to day basis rarely involves much more than the tedium described above. When it requires more...don't fool yourself; not all that many are up to the task.

But, more tellingly...I have one aquaintance who is a GP and many years go, he was gross billing over 1 million per year. Another friend was at TGH. He was a young but internationally renowned cardiologist. His annual income as a staff member was around $150,000. And you know what? The cardiologist didn't whine. and, knowing him as I did, I can tell you that he would not utter comparisons such as; ...the nurses aide and the doctor; the busboy and the chef; the receptionist and the 'professional'.

A disappointing and shallow response. Blame it on the rum.

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You speak of my attitude and then close with "blame it on the rum"? Talk about "disappointing and shallow" responses! What should we blame that on I wonder? Paint fumes? huh.gif

For what it's worth I can assure you that the Jaguar specialist, along with some of his kin at GM or Volkswagon, make more than I do. ...and by the way, we AME's work the whole ship, not just the engines. Is your knowledge of aircraft limited to what an FA needs to know?

You appear to be confused... "gross billing" vs. an "annual income"? ...and that comparison between a GP and a cardiologist? Hardly equivalent to the difference between a pilot and an FA. (or a doctor and a nurses aide) Yessir, I'd call the FA's job one which requires relatively little skill. We were comparing their job to a pilot's, after all. I do believe someone working at McDonalds now can be trained for the job in a few short weeks.

I'm fairly sure we won't agree, and frankly, with your evident propensity for flinging insult, I find I have little desire to continue the discussion in any case.

Thanks anyway.

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Why is it that people keep focussing on the supposed fact that FA's make, or want to make, as much as pilots and AMEs? We don't. Some FA's make more than a few pilots for the time being, but those FAs will never make much more while those pilots will one day triple their salaries, if not more.

Yeah, Pilots and AMEs can do a lot of damage if they fukk up. People take it for granted that you guys are safety professionals. But if we don't make our customers feel safe, give them great service, and treat them with respect and dignity, they won't come back to fly us again. And in the end that will cost all of us our jobs.

So who do you think affects ACE and how it is perceived by the general public, and how do you compensate these people correctly? It sure as heck ain't our pilots and mechanics that people think about when they choose one carrier over another. They're a given and they're paid accordingly. But Joe Public will make or break AC based on the performance of the front line staff like the FAs and Agents(unless of course one of you guys screws up badly). They could care less if the pilot has one year or twenty. As long as they leave and arrive safely, they don't think about you. All they remember is how they were treated from walking into the airport until they got their bags.

The effect of one of your screwups would be immediate and probably catastrophic, but the effect of us screwing up constantly, which is likely since we have no skills to speak of dry.gif , will slowly erode our customers' confidence in the company and will have the same effect in the end. Slow erosion versus an explosive event.

So shouldn't there be safeguards like proper training, proper treatment, and proper compensation to ensure that the right people are hired and everything possible is done to avoid a catastrophic consequence due to one group or another screwing up this company?

IMHO, we all are deserving of much more than what we make, but none of us should begrudge another vital element to the success of this company from being compensated what their union and the company have agreed is a compensation in line with their value to the success of this organization. If there are issues there, as it would appear some pilots and AMEs believe, perhaps the unions should look inwards instead of trying to castigate one another.

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It is sad how this thread has morphed... but, so be it... I personally don't see any need to rigidly avoid letting that happen. Many butterflys don't look anything like their larvae. smile.gif

Moeman,

It's extremely tempting to just avoid any further discussion of this sort, but there are evidently some widespread mis-perceptions that I believe are potentially harmful if they're not challenged. So I'll try my best to offer those challenges, while hopefully avoiding any insult. Perhaps I've fallen for some mis-perceptions myself? If so, I'm confident someone will offer the needed correction. wink.gif

I was comparing the job of the FA to that of the folks immediately behind the windscreen... In that light, when I say an FA has no skills to speak of, are you really insulted? I hope not.

I'm certain that, with experience, good FA's develop some fantastic people handling skills... I've seen it. I'm also certain that good FA's play a vital role in keeping an airline in operation, since their contributions are indeed the lions share of what a passenger sees. However, I think it's worth noting that even a brand new FA, with nothing more than the few short weeks of training could manage the same results... whereas, the minimum training, experience, and developed skills required to successfully fly that aircraft from point A to point B are far greater.

This is an absurd discussion! There's no possible justification for any FA making more money than a pilot of the ship he/she is working on. No matter who, how, or which group created that absurdity, it's just nuts!

"It sure as heck ain't our pilots and mechanics that people think about when they choose one carrier over another. They're a given and they're paid accordingly."

No. We're not all "paid accordingly" at all! Witness the RJ pilot and the AME's. Based on a discussion of wage comparisons with cp fa some time ago (where I learned we might then have had a very slight advantage), and given the recent concessions, I suspect the top FA's pay is now greater than the top AME's...

"As long as they leave and arrive safely, they don't think about you."

Bingo! ...You know what? I hardly ever give any thought to the folks who maintain elevators... I just assume it'll get me up and or down safely... but what if it doesn't? ... do you know the guy that fixes those things gets paid far more than I do? I had a guy come by to do some warranty work on a dishwasher a while back... I was stunned when I learned what he was paid... he laughed at my wage. sad.gif

I know... nobody ever thinks of us. That's because we generally do a good job. Good thing eh?

"The effect of one of your screwups would be immediate and probably catastrophic, but the effect of us screwing up constantly, [...] will slowly erode our customers' confidence in the company and will have the same effect in the end. Slow erosion versus an explosive event."

That slow erosion can be headed off with some corrective measures, by even a slow observer. I think you're helping to make the point with that. If any of us screwed up "constantly", we'd either be dead, in jail, or fired long before "constant" was available.

"So shouldn't there be safeguards like proper training, proper treatment, and proper compensation to ensure that the right people are hired and everything possible is done to avoid a catastrophic consequence due to one group or another screwing up this company?"

Absolutely!

"IMHO, we all are deserving of much more than what we make, but none of us should begrudge another vital element to the success of this company from being compensated what their union and the company have agreed is a compensation in line with their value to the success of this organization."

I can reluctantly accept the disparity between that elevator or dishwasher repairman's wage and my own (though it irks me greatly), because he's in a different world... Those of us in the same business though... and especially in the same company!?!?.... The level of skills, responsibilities, training and experience required for various tasks is completely out of whack with our various compensation packages! We do have situations where the nurses aides, and even the doormen are indeed making more than the doctor (so to speak). In the case of AME's, due to recent changes to our overtime payment methods, there are many instances where station attendants are bringing home more than us. (and because of that, some will likewise receive a better pension) Flight attendants, working less hours than we do, earn the same, or better than us.

In the case of some RJ pilots, both flight attendants and baggage handlers are making more than them also!

I don't know what those pilots think (though I can certainly guess), but to my mind, that's not at all "in line with their value to the success of this organization". Our value to the success of any given flight is immeasurable. If you'd argue with that, consider what value an FA has without an airplane? Of what value is a comfortable chair without the floor to put it on? Of what value is air conditioning without walls and a roof?

"If there are issues there, as it would appear some pilots and AMEs believe, perhaps the unions should look inwards instead of trying to castigate one another."

Castigation unintended... however, due to shotgun contract negotiations, much of this absurdity is due to fester until 2009! How much that festering will wind up costing is anyones guess. I believe it could be huge.

Cheers,

Mitch

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Thanks Mitch. Well said. My only issue with it is that once again you seem to have have grouped ALL FA's into the "make more money than an RJ Pilot" category. If a senior Elevator Tech. made more than a brand new AME but the AME had the potential, and expectation, to one day triple his/her salary, would that seem like an inequity to you?

Face it. We're talking about a select few pilots at the bottom of the totem pole versus a select few pursers who are at the top. Is it "right" that a pilot at AC make less than a FA? No. I don't think so. But that is a short-term situation that will correct itself in short order.

We're all extremely important to the success of this company and are compensated in line with what our unions, the members who ratified the agreements, and the company have agreed is acceptable. Is it perfect? Nope. But that's what we all agree to when we sign on as an employee. You don't have to like everything about it, but you've got to live with it and I think it's time we all respected each other for the different skills we bring to the table in trying to make this company successful. If there's one thing that ticks me off it's people who discount what it takes to do what I do by making comments like "the worst thing that could happen if an FA screws up is dinner gets burnt" or "a brand new FA, with nothing more than the few short weeks of training, could manage the same results" as someone like myself. It may look like a cake walk from the outside looking in, but it sure as heck ain't how Hollywood portrays the job. Not anymore anyway. I don't discount the value you bring to the table, but you so casually dismiss mine.

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Guest JakeYYZ

first kippy, now mitchy eviscerated by all those uncomfortable 'facts'.

..quite the left and right to the glass chin of the forum brain trust.

And. And and I think it’s time to take up a collection and dedicate a plaque to whomever

coined that phrase "10% terror". It’s trotted out often enough…

should have a royalty or suppin attached to it. But, I digress..

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Moeman... I don't believe I've casually dismissed your value at all. I've only attempted to express my opinion of a comparison between the value of the work you do with that of the work some others do within the same business. My wife was once a nurses aide... her mother worked most of her life as a nurses aide. Even while they knew their work was indeed quite important to the continued operation of the hospital, niether of them ever thought their work was of the same value as the doctor's.

Jake...

first kippy, now mitchy eviscerated by all those uncomfortable 'facts'.

..quite the left and right to the glass chin of the forum brain trust.

I'll certainly admit to the uncomfortable nature of the discussion... I don't like being in this position at all, since I can see there are FA's here who are unfortunately taking my words as being personally devaluing... That is truly not my intent.

But what "facts" are those? ...and can you elaborate on just how either I or my words have been eviscerated?

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first kippy, now mitchy eviscerated by  all those uncomfortable 'facts'.

....

Not really JAKE...you ever try to talk to a "brick" and get a reasonable answer?? Undoubtedly those that did venture into the minefield of verbosity feel that way.....on both sides of the issue.

Pointless and a waste of time, so those that encounter a "brick" know when it is time to back out...but "defeat"...never wink.gif

Too little time to waste on those that have delusions of adequacy and those that can compress the most words into the smallest and rather pointless discussion points ....................and the feeling is probably mutual for all the participants.

But it is a free country and we do have freedom of speech but there are not many who can nail jello to a wall, so why waste time persuing a useless endeavour laugh.gif

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Mitch---I'm sorry you were offended by the reference to "blame it on the rum". I simply adopted that line from some of your own posts.

You suggest that I am "confused" by references to "gross" and "annual" income. I am often confused, I admit, but not about the use of this terminology.Perhaps you would appreciate clarification. "Gross billings" refers to the total income generated by the practice from which the practitioner then pays for staff, rent etc. The cardiologist at TGH receives an annual stipend (ie; annual income) and is provided with staff, office and incidentals.

You do not consider the difference between a GP and a specialist to be particularly significant. A matter of opinion, I appreciate but I think the cardiologist might not share your opinion. I don't think I'd find many detractors when I suggest that the amount of money received by cosmetic specialists (plastic surgeons) is "obscene" when compared to the earnings of oncologists but...I digress.

Moeman....your obvious skills of articulate expression belie the argument that little is required (or expected) of an FA. Alternatively, as an audit of this forum will readily establish, we ought all to be thankful that it is persons such as yourself who are on the "front-line" of communication rather than some others who presume their "skills" to be of more value.

I don't know how often you have to say that detractors are comparing the MAXIMUM wage level of an FA with the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM for an "entry-level" right-seat pilot. Eventually, I suppose, your voice will be heard.

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Kip...I appreciate that you had little time for formal education as you slogged your way "up" the career ladder but...do you now what ad hominem means?

When you can add little of substance to a discussion; when you are bereft of effective response-----attack the person of your "opponent".

This isn't the first such occasion when you attempt to trivialize those who don't share your opinions. I am sure that it won't be the last but you should be aware of the tendency.

By the way...weren't you suposed to be packing scuba gear? We will all breathlessly await your next "blog".

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UpperDeck,

I accept, and appreciate your apology. My own references to my rum drinking that I add on the occasions where I am indeed indulging, are offered occasionally to add humour, and occasionally as a sort of partial description of the mood I'm in... Sometimes it will help those reading to know as much as they can about the frame of mind of the writer. Just because I'm not afraid to admit it when I am, please don't take it to mean all my writing is done under the influence.

I understand completely the difference between gross billings and an annual salary... I was suggesting that it appeared you were confusing the issue. Out of those gross billings do you know what that GP managed to pay himself? Obviously, that's the comparison that makes sense.

You're quite right to highlight Moeman's point about the differences in wage scales being skewed by level of experience, but the disparity is still, in my mind, unjust.

What you're calling "an entry-level right-seat pilot", as Kip attempted to point out, has already been through the ringer just to get that "entry level" job at Air Canada.

Try perusing the AvCanada sight for a while if you doubt that... Most of these guys spend many years in light single's, light twins, working the docks, throwing bags, flying overloaded heaps of scrap... etc... in order to build the hours needed to get that job you call "entry level"... not to mention the hordes of dollars they've spent to get the qualifications in the first place.

I understand there are airlines in Europe (and perhaps elsewhere) that hire pilots straight out of flight training schools, but Air Canada does not. Nor does any airline in Canada that I've ever heard of.

By the time that "entry level" RJ F/O is being insulted with a wage that is less than that of the FA in the back of his airplane, he's already worth twice their wage, imo.

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When you can add little of substance to a discussion; when you are bereft of effective response-----attack the person of your "opponent".

This isn't the first such occasion when you attempt to trivialize those who don't share your opinions. I am sure that it won't be the last but you should be aware of the tendency.

By the way...weren't you suposed to be packing scuba gear? We will all breathlessly await your next "blog".

Mr. Kettle, meet Mr. Pot. blink.gif

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Last post on the subject ----promise. Mitch, the people that I know who are AC pilots didn't all arrive at the portal in the manner you describe. One or two did fly in the bush (so to speak) but did it without regard to some day working for a major carrier. They were young; adventuresome and it seemed like a neat thing to do. Much like the back-packer trekking through Europe following graduation who years later became a writer, I've no doubt that the experience helped when flying became a career choice. But please ---don't confuse a "life-experience" with requisite training for a dedicated career path.

I understand that in today's economic climate there is a surfeit of pilots. The marketplace and ACPA's committment to maintaining some flying regardless of a junior's sacrifice has resulted in lower wages for "entry-level" AC pilots. The term, by the way, is not demeaning and simply refers to the low-man on the totem pole.

Their pay scale has nothing to do with what another employee in this industry or in any other industry is paid. Our society doesn't have and wouldn't long tolerate a hierarchical payscale. And thank God for that!!

As an aside...I'm sure you knew that a pilot can bid and hold reserve, receiving minimum pay guarantee and refuse all flying until the list below him/her is exhausted ---basically, fly once every three months or so and get a nice cheque each month, commuting up front, of course from their Island home because pilots don't hesitate to "approach the desk". That person in the right seat has at least that to look forward to!! Some sacrifices are rewarded...in spades.

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Lord, this is an embarassing thread to read. Started with a nice little tale and a comment on Mr. Peter's principle, expanded nicely in a couple of replies, then gratuitous slagging.

So it takes a lot more to become a pilot than a flight attendant, or most other frontline or operational airline jobs except maintainance. Nobody disagrees. & Pilots should accordingly be paid more. Nobody disagrees. Yet some have to hit others over the head with it, railing against the fact that a few pilots at the bottom of AC's payscale make less than those at the top of another. Really, it's just plain rude IMVHO.

A respect for the work in the back end does not align with fallacious comparisons between fatal accidents and burnt meals (& the guy who came up with that hoary old chestnut about boredom and terror must have been trying to impress his lady wink.gif). They can also "fukk up" a cabin fire or an air rage episode, compared to the front end bouncing a landing or two or mismanaging cabin temp. Is pilots' work more valuable overall than flight attendants? Of course it is, and the pay does reflect that by being at least double or triple on average.

And who the hell is responsible for that small overlap at AC anyway? AC Pilots themselves, who collectively negotiate their own pay levels. Is a payscale for another group to be lowered because pilots choose a steep gradient of payscales that is ridiculous at the starting point, but will triple or sextuple over the long term? Without a flatter or status pay, maybe no YOS increases, there'll likely be some oddball comparisons, but ya dances with who brung ya and sleeps in the bed ya made.

Pay levels are a matter for each of us to work out within our own companies, but in the meantime why belittle holders of another position, who made their own deal?

Cheers, IFG

P.S. Perhaps nudging your thread back where you'd originally pointed it, Mitch, remember that your friend did seem thrilled with his promotion. Should his employer have red-circled him in the former position in which he apparemtly excelled. OTOH, if one really thinks themselves best left in their current position, that would be an option I'd think biggrin.gif.

The principle applies more to organizations than individuals, and specifically to the difficulty in our culture of unwinding a bad promotion. At its worst, of course, theoretically every position is filled by the incompetent wink.gif. Cheers again, IFG

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I'd forgotten how we got here... Thanks IFG. cool.gif

When I first heard the question pop out of my son's mouth, I felt like I was seeing one of those bright lights kids sometimes show that later get dimmed by seeing how the world really works. It's such an obvious question to ask, isn't it? If the man is so good at his job, why would you want to remove him from it?... Of course, the answer can be, and often is, that what makes him good at his current job will serve him well in the job he's being promoted to.

But as many of us know, because we've seen it, that's not always the case. Sometimes, the position he's being promoted to is so different that his current skills are of no use to him there. Perhaps I've become somewhat cynical because, over the years, I've seen that very scenario acted out so many times. I happen to work in a field where there is almost no relation between our most desirable abilities in the lower rungs of the career ladder and the required abilities in the upper rungs. I'm not even sure it should be the same ladder! huh.gif

Cheers,

Mitch

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In response to IFG...

The pilots on the low end of the scale need to realize that they are not finished "Paying their dues". The pilots at the high end of the scale were once making a pittance working a flight instructors and such just like today.

It seems in EVERY area today, the people just comming into a field want to be at the top of the ladder and skip over all of those steps that make a person that should actually BE at the top of the ladder.

Should a person with no experience in a field or fresh out of school be the manager on his first day? NO. The experiences that make a good manager are learned on the job or in the field. People, some better than others, invariably learn by example. If I worked for a manager who was experienced and a good manager then I would be more likely to follow his example and become a good manager. The same works in reverse. I have had the privelage to work for some GREAT managers and supervisors in my time. I have also worked for some real dolts. I chose to learn from the good ones.

In the next few weeks I will be moving into the next step in my career and making the jump to management. I hope I will be able to put all of those lessons learned to work. If not I hope the people on my team will have the courage to tell me I'm a dolt. tongue.gif

B

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If not I hope the people on my team will have the courage to tell me I'm a dolt. tongue.gif

B...

That one sentence is a great start. If you can take the critisism without making it personal, then you are one of the very few that will do great at whatever you do....

Just my opinion

Iceman wink.gif

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